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Wednesday, May 21, 2008

Concern with the IB - Part II

By Margaret Dayton
Utah State Senator, District 15

IB Commenters - thanks to those of you who posted thoughtful insight on my last blog. I appreciate you taking the time. I would like to respond with a few clarifying comments.

First, I have never espoused eliminating IB. This is a program that has been in some of our schools for years, which was a local decision into which the legislature did not insert itself. When the legislature was asked to put taxpayer money into IB, however, I did oppose it. Notwithstanding my opposition, IB has some taxpayer $$ allocated for student testing fees. Once state taxpayers foot the bill, the legislature has some oversight responsibility. Thus, my questions re: governance.

2. I have been accused of not wanting our students to be world citizens. That is correct. At least, it is correct in the following sense: I don't want to create 'world citizens' nearly as much as I want to help cultivate American citizens who function well in the world.

The IB program teaches a skeptical unattached philosophy of world citizenship. It does not try to instill cultural identity. It was built for a fairly transient group of students whose parents are employed abroad and who have no particular religious, national, or cultural loyalties. It is not governed by Americans.

From Dr. Nicholas Tate, Director of the International School of Geneva:
"In international schools there is no core body of historical and geographical knowledge, no literary canon, no obligatory cultural content whose transmission is a key purpose of the educational project as it has to be in a nation state. . . .

" … What distinguishes state schools, … whatever their student population, is that they must start from the basis that they are educating their students for life and future citizenship within the national community. They need to give priority to the national language … and to the history, literature and culture of the nation state of which they are an embodiment. This gives them a different mission from international schools."

Source: Dr. Nicholas Tate, “What Is Education For? The Purposes of Education and Their Implications for the School Curriculum,” International Baccalaureate Organization, The Alec Peterson Lecture, April 24, 2004, Geneva: 10. http://www.ibo.org/council/peterson/tate/
In contrast, local school districts teach local language, laws, and cultural content. They help students recognize a literary canon, a shared history & identity for citizenship in a real community. The districts are governed by local people, parents and elected leaders. To me, that is very important.

America is special. I believe our nation is unique and we have a concept to teach and offer the world. There is something very inspiring about political and economic freedom - about a republic of, by, and for the People.

And I think those characteristics should be taught. Highlighted. Celebrated.

Again, I don't want to create 'world citizens' nearly as much as I want to help cultivate American citizens who function well in the world.



Blogger The Senate Site said...

There is more than a little irony in the discussion so far. I appreciate the descriptions of academic rigor that have attracted fans and defenders to the IB program. Love it, in fact.

Yet. . . when we work for more rigorous standards locally we're met by resistance. It seems to be fine with certain members of the Board of Education when a world-class program is dropped from a U.N. helicopter - as it were - but they'll fight tooth and nail to avoid producing one locally. My question: Why can't all our programs be world class?* Why not start with math?


* Hint: only a small part of the answer has to do with funding (and we're working to fix that aspect).

5/22/2008 4:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We don't achieve world class standards by looking to California or Provo. We need world evaluation and ideas in order for our kids to compete in the world. Unless our definition of world is Provo.

IB offers world class evaluation, it was developed for children of the military and diplomats; hardly vagabonds as Sen. Dayton suggests.

Have you read "Supertest" by Jay Mathews? It is helpful for explaining IB from an American point of view. He even spells "program" in American English.

I highly recommend the book to the Eagle Forum since after last session's comments it sounds like they could use some educating on the issue. And perhaps back off on pressuring our Utah Co. friends in the Lege.

Our schools teach the Utah State core curriculum through its IB program, it is approved by you guys, not Dr. Evil.

P.S. Thank you Sens. Romero and Jones for your wise comments at the Ed Interim Cmte meeting yesterday. I wish there were more Republicans like you.

5/22/2008 5:48 PM  
Anonymous Cherilyn Bacon Eagar said...

Members of the Senate, Members of the House, Educators, Students, Media, Bloggers:

I have been reviewing the posts with great interest. I’d like to thank the Senate Education Committee, under the Chairmanship of Senator Dayton, for giving this topic further investigation. I’d also like to thank the educators who have welcomed me to their schools to give me “tours” of their IB programs. The media should also be commended for their fair coverage of this topic since Wednesday. And thanks to The Senate Site moderator.

I am a former teacher. I've taught music at the college level as well as in a charter school, one of the top 8 arts high schools in the nation. I owned and administered a summer musical theatre program in New York City, rated by the industry paper as one of the top two in the field, along side of NYU's Cap 21 program.

My children have attended a range of schools: private, public, charter, parochial, and home - in several regions of the country, including Utah. Because of my experience and my observations, I became an informed critic. I have studied and analyzed education curricula and pedagogy since 1989. I have presented at national forums and conferences, and provided research that has been used on the U.S. Senate floor.

I have given 100's of hours to researching the IB Programme. I hope to contribute positively to clear up some of the confusion. I will be posting from time to time on this topic, as well as on other education topics.

In order to be a trusted source of information, I have learned that I must:

1) Provide flawless citations. My research is from original sources: the IBO website, IBO leaders, IBO partners, and other proponents of international education. From time to time, I will cite another critic, but when I do, I have first researched the accuracy of that citation, and I identify it as a secondary source. I provide the full citation and, where possible, the live link, so that you may research the entire document for context;

2) Keep the discussion reasoned. This topic has raised a firestorm of emotions. It will behoove us to articulate through the diplomatic skills of reason and persuasive discourse. Those who resort to name-calling and/or personal credibility attacks usually have a deficit of facts or arguments on their side.

3) Welcome Challenge and Invite Questions. I encourage everyone to dig deeply into this topic. Challenge my citations, if you will. Go where I have gone. If you have questions, I will do my best to answer them. In the end, our elected and appointed decision-makers will be better informed and will make better decisions for our most valuable resource: the next generation.

Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
Director, World Class Education Research

5/22/2008 6:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are you also opposed to AP classes because they are not regulated by the state? What about SAT's and ACT's? Would you deny funding to a program empirically proven to help kids get into good colleges?

On your first point: There are countless students with all the intelligence and potential in the world who simply cannot afford to take IB tests. This is why we must provide funding for such students. The alternative is a school system where only the rich can afford to have a chance at the top schools.

As to your second point, not forcing culture on students is far removed from trying to destroy it. Kids in IB schools still have to meet Utah graduation requirements. Would you then only fund programs instilling "state culture" into our children? Is nothing else worthy of public funds? Neutrality cannot be equated with an anti-American, anti-Utahn, or anti-culture bias. It doesn't try to destroy our American citizenship. Is it not possible to be both world citizens and American citizens?

Utah has had its chance to provide an equally competitive and challenging alternative, and has failed. Utah ranks in the bottom ten schools in the nation, and yet West, the school with the oldest IB program, ranks 158th among high schools and the best in state.

I urge you to reconsider your harsh opposition to this wonderful program that has gotten so many happy students into the colleges and careers of their dreams.

5/22/2008 7:53 PM  
Anonymous Eye on the ball said...

This is not about rigor. It is about the underlying philosophy. If rigor is the standard-bearer, then we could applaud the rigor of Hitler’s national socialist education system and the same for the USSR, both noted for their rigor. Also, this is European rigor. All one needs to do is to look at the stats on Europe and then ask why we would want to follow suit with an educational program that will produce more little Europeans.

5/22/2008 8:09 PM  
Blogger Heather said...

Thank you for the additional posting, Senator Dayton. I would like to request elaboration on your definition of the term "world citizen" - especially as it compares to the IB mission of "developing citizens of the world".

As an educator and an American citizen, I understand being a "world citizen" to mean someone [American] who CAN "function well in the world". It is impossible to function on a global level if you have no understanding - or respect - of global culture, language, social patterns and impact, etc. To me, your two statements are synonymous (and therefore contradicting yourself).

It is through understanding others that we can truly understand ourselves. Sometimes it appears people are afraid to learn about other world cultures because it may force them to critically reflect upon their own.

The United State of America is not the only country in this world, even though many individual behaviors of our citizens - as well as our government - would lead one to believe otherwise. Our reputation as a country is weakening and we NEED these "global citizens" who can rebuild our presence on a global level.

Major components of the IB program curriculum include developing an individual cultural identity. It also involves action and service tied to problem solving. It is these types of skills that we need to start building in future generations if we want to retain our position in the world. We NEED "world citizens".

5/22/2008 10:04 PM  
Blogger CraigJ said...

Cherilyn, what I want to know is whether you have prayed about the IB program? Although you sound like you're an off-the-chart genius, let's belay your research disclaimer for a moment and get straight to the heart of the matter.

5/22/2008 11:50 PM  
Anonymous Gus said...

I prayed about Craig Johnson and received a personal witness that he should stop cross-dressing.

5/23/2008 1:01 AM  
Blogger CraigJ said...

R A N D O M...

5/23/2008 1:19 AM  
Blogger Bob said...

Sen Dayton-

I appreciate the open discussion that is allowed to go on this blog. However, you have misused the word blog.

A blog is a series of postings. You have not written two blogs on the IB program You have written two posts.

"The Blog" would be the entirety of the Senate Site.

-Bob Aagard
The Worlds, According to Me

5/23/2008 8:41 AM  
Anonymous Gus said...

Thank you Professor Aagard. You must be an IB Graduate.

5/23/2008 10:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Cheryl Bacon Eager,

You are to be commended on your investigation of the IB program. I hope the Utah Senate majority will take your research to heart. I will remain anonymous on this blog for now, but I am sure you can figure out who I am. I readily admit to having had my buttons pushed by IB supporters in the past and having responded elsewhere in a less than emotionally neutral manner. I will endeavor to contribute whatever primary resources I can to the discussion in a rational, non-emotional manner so that reason will prevail.

5/23/2008 11:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My apologies, I meant to address that post to Cherilyn, not Cheryl.

5/23/2008 11:10 AM  
Anonymous Cherilyn Bacon Eagar said...

Heather: You are correct that there are different meanings to the label "world citizen." IB Theory of Knowledge teachers should be familiar with the philosophical underpinnings of the curriculum and know that origins of the "world citizen" go back as far as Diogenes, the classic Greek cynic.

He and his followers held the view that they were to be one with nature and that the earth was to be commonly owned. They denounced private wealth, and they held a cosmopolitan view calling themselves "citizens of the world."

You can draw your own conclusions from this view as to how these ideas are interpreted today in environmental, economic, private ownership and sovereign governance policies.

What is remarkable about this classical definition of "world citizenship" is how closely it resembles the definition of cosmopolitanism found in the United Nation's blueprint for global sustainability: The Earth Charter (EC). "http:// www.EarthCharter.org" It's not long. When you read it, you will understand why the U.S. has not endorsed it. (Hint: It demands redistribution of the wealth globally, for starters.)

Here is a link to the history of that document:

" http://www.earthcharterinaction.org/about_charter.html”

I won't give away the identities of the EC’s creators here. I'll let you do the homework. I will simply say it's not surprising to find some rather famous progressive names listed as developers of that U.N. Charter.

Even though the IBO recently withdrew its official endorsement of the EC, due to negative publicity and too many schools dropping the IB program as a result, its curriculum has not changed and is built around EC tenets.

Furthermore, IB educators and leaders have not changed their minds about the progressive mission and focus of the international school. You can Google some names yourself. For example: Former IB Dep. Dir. Ian Hill’s Disarmament Forum speech on how crucial the IBO curriculum is to this progressive agenda and speeches by Dep. Dir. George Walker, founding Dep. Dir. Alec Peterson, Dir. of Geneva Int'l School Nicholas Tate, each found on the IBO website. (Just go to the Peterson Lecture speeches at " http://www.IBO.org”
.) This will give you a sense of the progressive political leanings and philosophy of IBO leadership.

You can also go to " http://www.wikipedia.com”
and find several well-cited definitions of "world citizenship." Here is a blurb:

"World citizen is a term with a variety of meanings, often referring to a person who disapproves of traditional geopolitical divisions derived from national citizenship and approves world government and democracy.

"In a non-political definition, it has been suggested that a world citizen may provide value to society by using knowledge acquired across cultural contexts. In its most obvious scenario, the savvy businessman that has traveled the world would be able to use knowledge about resources and products found abroad to create business where value can be maximized. In another scenario, the savvy world citizen would leverage cultural knowledge from his numerous trips to create bridges of knowledge, also creating value."

So you are correct, Heather. There are different definitions of "world citizen" – among them political and non-political.

All definitions apply, but I would pay special attention to the political one.

Senator Dayton is also correct to focus on the political definition. That is her role as an elected official. As nations become more regionally connected, it is that definition that will impact the future of the United States, its governance and its free enterprise system. Once marketing campaigns to rally us around the non-political definition of global citizenship have succeeded, allegiance will then rally around the political definition. That’s what education means by "socialization," but that’s another topic.

By the way, this progressive political bias is not limited to the IB curriculum. These themes are found throughout the public school, as well as in some private school, curricula. That's why in every state, and globally, the progressives (i.e. U.S. Democrats, together with their RINO compatriots) defend it with such passion.

Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research

5/23/2008 11:46 AM  
Blogger CraigJ said...

So in one voice, Cherilyn Bacon Eagar lectures everyone who disagrees with her that they don't have the facts and that they are just name calling.

But in the very next breath she says:

"That's why in every state, and globally, the progressives (i.e. U.S. Democrats, together with their RINO compatriots) defend it with such passion."

"RINO compatriots", huh? Cherilyn is whining because IB is apparently not "Republican enough" to be supported. At least she's shown her true colors as a partisan.

Since when did an educational program need the endorsement of a political party to be considered effective? Regardless of such grandstanding, the results speak for themselves - IB students graduate with better grades and go on to college more frequently than non-IB students.

But that's not why Cherilyn Bacon Eagar of "World Class Education Research" has jumped into the fray, is it?

The message to all you R's who support IB - sorry, pals! Cherilyn Bacon Eagar thinks you're not worthy to be a Republican. And since she is so brilliant it's probably best that you just resign your membership now.

5/23/2008 12:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig G:

I found no evidence of whining, lecturing, grandstanding or intellectual condescension in Cherilyn's post. She pointed out facts, facts with verifiable links. All that she has stated is the truth. She has arrived at her conclusions based on years of extensive research, and having done the same, I concur with her findings. Whether her findings fall into the political agenda of one party or another, is very much the point. Public education should be apolitical. IB is anything but.

5/23/2008 12:37 PM  
Blogger CraigJ said...


"Public education should be apolitical" - if the legislature only believed this we'd be a lot better off!!!

5/23/2008 12:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig G:

Very good. We have reached a point of agreement: public education should be apolitical.

Now to the major point of diagreement: IB is not apolitical.

The Utah Senate majority is Republican. IB's educational "philosophy" is decidedly "progressive" or Democratic, I'll even go so far as to say Socialist in numerous aspects. Such is not the case with Advanced Placement.

As Sen. Dayton reiterated, no one is seeking to abolish IB. You have every right to run IB programs in private schools or in magnet or charter schools where students go there by choice. But when it comes to expending American taxdollars on what is perceived by many to be a very partisan program, Sen. Dayton has every right to question the constitutionality of doing so on behalf of all interests she was elected to represent.

5/23/2008 2:16 PM  
Blogger CraigJ said...

Watch out people, here come the Socialists! Joseph McCarthy would be proud of you guys.

Sure - Sen. Dayton has a right, and the rest of have a right to think she's being myopic. So go ahead and critique IB, just don't expect the rest of us to simply shut up and take it.

IB is not progressive - it is also not conservative which is why you folks are in a huff. Look at the program itself - look at the IB attitudes and the transdisiplinary themes, for instance. These concepts transcend political parties. Teaching someone how to think and to respect various perspectives are treasured American values not to be measured on the conservative/progressive scale.

I imagine you are pro-voucher. I find this whole debate ironic given how you would have gladly given government money to private schools that would have been truly partisan. Yet, you have a problem with the public spending a lousy $100K on IB - one of the most successful college prep programs in the U.S. I guess school choice is only ok if it's your brand of choice.

And just as a reminder - this bill passed the House unanimously. That includes all of the folks in the conservative caucus who don't think too highly of progressive causes. I guess from your perspective they were all just asleep at the switch.

5/23/2008 2:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig J:

Thank you for your post, it was most informative.

Teaching someone how to think and to respect various perspectives are treasured American values not to be measured on the conservative/progressive scale.

That is probably one of the most laughable pro-IB statements I have ever read, especially in light of the fact that you opened your post with:

Watch out people, here come the Socialists! Joseph McCarthy would be proud of you guys.

Do you call that respect for a Conservative viewpoint? Since IB taught you "how to think", in other words, indoctrinated you into believing that only the Left way of thinking is the correct way, does that entitle you to make fun of people who think differently than you, or the IB way?

So go ahead and critique IB, just don't expect the rest of us to simply shut up and take it.

Perhaps if IB wasn't always with its hand out for more money, people wouldn't find the need to criticize it.

We are not discussing the voucher program and your imagination is just that, your imagination. Let's stay on topic please.

And just as a reminder - this bill passed the House unanimously.

That would be the SECOND, bill, right, Craig? The first bill which included $300,000 for IB was defeated.

5/24/2008 2:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To other Anonymous:

"Have you read "Supertest" by Jay Mathews? It is helpful for explaining IB from an American point of view. He even spells "program" in American English."

I have. In fact, Mr. Mathews e-mailed it to me pre-publication. If you've read it then you must be aware of the fact that Mr. Mathews' co-author is Ian Hill, Deputy Director General for IBO and that the book was published by Open Court which is owned by Blouke Carus, an IBNA board member. But getting commissioned to write about a program by the people who run the program wouldn't bias the writing in anyway, would it? Nah.

That would also be the same Jay Mathews who created the much touted and IB celebrated Newsweek Best High Schools List.

He's a nice man. We're doing lunch in a couple of weeks. He's also an IB patsy and knows I say it about him. He doesn't care, he's made a good buck off IB and is close to retirement.

Sorry to burst your IB bubble, but it really always does just boil down to "follow the money".

5/24/2008 2:22 AM  
Blogger CraigJ said...


Alright let's review your message point-by-point.

1) You are incorrect. The FIRST bill for $300K did pass the House unanimously before being killed by Sens. Dayton, Stephenson, and Peterson in the Senate Education Committee.

2) IB does not always "have its hand out." The small appropriation was to assist the students of the growing IB programs across the state. There is absolutely no record of IB programs looking for "handouts." If anything, the success of the programs are largely due to committed teachers going the extra mile - willing to challenge their students beyond what even they think they can accomplish.

3) I respect conservative viewpoints but I do NOT respect Joseph McCarthy nor do I respect the position that IB is "Socialist" which you brought up. The conservatives I know have very little, if anything, in common with Joseph McCarthy - a man who caused this nation great pain.

4) I stand by my statement that ingenuity and deep thinking are treasures of Americanism. Our "can do" spirit demonstrates this ability to be agile and flexible, to take what's given and to improve upon it. It is why we continue to be #1 in the world in economic competitivemess. IB totally fits into this by telling students that they CAN achieve through reasoned thinking, personal effort and service to their community. Such values are not the exclusive domain of any party - they are shared principles guiding Americans of every political persuasion.

5) The voucher reference is congrous with the discussion - those opposing IB are also those who strongly supported vouchers. In one breath they raise the red flag (literally in this case) that we must maintain state control over what is to be taught - ostensibly to make the claim that IB is a program that doesn't deserve to be under the umbrella. YET, in the very same breath, they were willing to hand over hundreds of millions of taxpayer money to partisan private schools for which they would have absolutely no say in the curriculum whatsoever. I find that both ironic and inconsistent.

5/24/2008 6:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig J:

You sound like a very passionate and bright young man. I admire your willingness to stand up for what you believe in. The problem, however, is that your beliefs are based on propaganda and misinformation when it comes to IB.

You stated: There is absolutely no record of IB programs looking for "handouts."

I'm afraid you are incorrect. A quick search of IBO's own website reveals the following passage, most telling indeed:


"Let no one underestimate the challenge of penetrating any public system of education. It was not by chance that the League of Nations in the 1920s refused to have anything to do with it, delegate after delegate arguing that education was essentially a national rather than an international responsibility.
However, the United States and Canada share one very important advantage for the IB and that is the devolved nature of their public education systems. The more heavily centralized the system, the more difficult it is to penetrate (France provides a very good example of this principle) and here I want to acknowledge the importance of the different IB sub regional groups that do a huge amount of effective lobbying and explaining at a state and provincial level. There are no fewer than 6 in Canada and 15 in the US: societies, leagues, associations, organizations, coalitions and guilds. Let me pause to say a heartfelt ‘thank you’ to everyone who is contributing to their work."

"Lobbying at the State and Provincial level" Hmmm, what do you think they were lobbying for? Cheese Doodles? The use of the word "penetrate" is also most telling as to IBO's true motives.

5/24/2008 7:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig J:

Let me also add that I am not ignoring or dismissing your other 3 points. I come from a state that does not issue vouchers and therefore do not feel qualified to discuss whether supporting vouchers is incongruous or congruous to one's position on IB. It is not something I have ever considered when arriving at my position on IB.

I also happen to agree with you that many Americans have ingenuity and are capable of deep thinking. I don't believe that Americans need to buy a Swiss educational program to further develop those qualities.

As to Joe McCarthy, your willingness to assign his persona to anyone of a Conservative viewpoint represents a deep rooted prejudice on your part. I would recommend sticking to the issues at hand instead of name calling.

For the benefit of the forum, allow me to re-emphasize a quote from the above passage:

"I want to acknowledge the importance of the different IB sub regional groups that do a huge amount of effective lobbying and explaining at a state and provincial level."

Huge amount. Indeed.

5/24/2008 7:42 AM  
Blogger CraigJ said...


I'm not as bright or as young as I once was :-) I'll take one more bite of this apple and then invite you to have the last word.

1) If you were from our state you would have no choice but to understand the irony of the voucher question in light of this discussion.

2) IB is based in Switzerland but is not a "Swiss" program. The IBO is a collaborative of committed individuals all across the world. It is singular in this regard; I consider this inclusive approach to be one of the program's great strengths.

3) Perhaps our definition of "handouts" may be different. I don't have a problem with IB organizations advocating their program to legislatures or school boards. What I have not seen in Utah is the continual return to the trough - the image of ingrates who are never satisfied as you have suggested.

4) You are the one who made reference to IB being "Socialist". This whole experience (not just your comments) smacks of red-baiting, hence the reference to McCarthy. Around here, most of the conservatives channel Ronald Reagan. Sen. Dayton channels Margaret Thatcher - they could practically be sisters! However, in this case, the anti-American claims and the rhetoric in committee meetings would have made McCarthy proud.

And now I invite you to have the last word.


5/24/2008 10:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig J:

That's very magnanimous of you to invite me to have the "last word". I didn't realize this forum was coming to a close. Furthermore, I believe in ongoing discussions, as we appear to be far from reaching common ground on the IB issue. However, if you feel you have said all that you can say in defense of the IB program, then so be it. I however, invite you to respond to any of my points which don't sit right with you.

1. I like irony. For example, I love non-pareils. But did you know there is no such thing as a pareil? How can that be? I find that rather ironic, don't you? However, throwing the voucher issue into the IB issue just appears to be an attempt on the part of IB supporters to muddy the waters.

2. Whether or not individuals from other countries contribute to the IBO curriculum, assessments, training, etc, may be something you find commendable, however it is irrelevant. The corporation is based in Geneva, governed by Swiss law and clearly states IBO expects anyone using its programs to abide by Swiss law as well.

3. Hmmm, yes, I see you are going with the Cheese Doodle defense. This is almost as weak as the Chewbaka defense used by Johnny Cochran on South Park. You stated: "There is absolutely no record of IB programs looking for "handouts." I proved to you not only is there a record, the record indicates that there is a "huge amount" of it. When a group such as IBNA lobbies the Senate of a State, that group is not lobbying for new legislation to mandate IB into law. It is not lobbying to try and make IB our national curriculum. The IB sub-regional groups are lobbying for one thing: MONEY.

4. I referred to IB's philosophy as being decidedly "progressive" and yes, even "socialist". Cherilyn provided several very good links to sources and speeches from IBO that substantiate our belief. Your avoidance of directly debating those points and instead choosing to repeat how Joe McCarthy would be proud demonstrates an inability to refute our points. I'm sorry if you don't like these things being pointed out to you. Suggesting individuals "channel" famous Conservatives is really rather immature and once again, demonstrates an inability on your part to stick to the facts and leave emotional projections out of it.

A final comment to you Craig. Your question to Cherilyn: "Cherilyn, what I want to know is whether you have prayed about the IB program?" was not only rude, it was completely uncalled for. I believe you owe the lady an apology.

5/24/2008 4:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't accept the premise that the IB curriculum is any more rigorous than existing programs. In fact, there is a good case to be made that IB is less rigorous than AP.

Engineering schools around the country give higher quality credit to AP over IB. The University of Utah's website is ambiguous when it comes to which classes AP and IB earn credit for. Utah State is a little more explicit.

Utah State
selected Electrical Engineering Requirements:
Math 1210: Calculus I
Math 1220: Calculus II
Phys 2210: General Physics - Science and Engineering I
Phys 2220: General Physics - Science and Engineering II

AP students may test out of all these classes. It is slightly ambiguous to me, but it doesn't appear that IB students may test out of any of them. (Most engineering schools do allow IB students to test out of the first semester of calculus.)

IB is notoriously weak in math and physics. Aspiring engineers should avoid IB.

Utah State credit by exam schedule

5/24/2008 8:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to apply my premise that AP students earn higher quality credits to the BYU school of engineering. Fortunately, BYU has a much more explicit AP/IB policy than Utah or Utah State.

BYU Electrical Engineering
Prerequisite courses
MATH 112 : Calculus 1.
MATH 113 : Calculus 2.
PHSCS 121 : Principles of Physics 1.
PHSCS 220 : Principles of Physics 3. (3:3:1)

Like Utah State, AP students may test out of all of these classes.

IB HL Math students may test out of Math 112. IB HL Further Math may test out of both Math 112 and Math 113.

But when it comes to physics, IB students may earn no credit toward an engineering degree even if they take HL Physics.

This pattern is repeated nationwide. Engineering schools give higher quality credit to AP students.

BYU Credit Schedules

5/24/2008 9:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BYU happens to be one of the few universities in the entire country that recognized SL IB exams for credit. I'm sure no one is around to answer the question this weekend, but I find it interesting that for 08-09, BYU does NOT have any credit schedule listed for IB. Mistake? Or did BYU stop recognizing IB?


5/25/2008 6:02 AM  
Blogger mitch said...

AP courses are only academic. The IB program also includes community service and an independent research paper. Challenging academics are vital but it should not be at a consequence of being uninvolved in the community. What is so bad about academic excellence and community involvement? It is from outside of Utah. It is from outside the US. It therefore must be teaching anti-US concepts.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling..............
(Sorry for the reference to an old Buddhist folktale, not originally an american story)

5/28/2008 6:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Whoever said community service is bad? Certainly not I. However, TRUE community service should be performed from the heart, not because it is a mandate for an IB diploma. Most public schools give community service credit to students who perform at least 20 hours per year. Forms can be obtained from the school's guidance office, and once the sponsors of whatever service the student performed sign off on it, the student is awarded credit which will appear on their transcript. Both of my children did this before IB came on the scene. Furthermore, the IB CAS also includes recognition of participation in a sport or school play, again, something students should do willingly, not because they are forced to. I certainly can't justify spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on the IB program when the same could be accomplished for $0.

The EE or Extended Essay consisting of 4,000 words, is only completed by the full IB diploma students, a tiny minority in the student population. And again, there is nothing preventing American English teachers from strengthening writing components in classrooms without having to buy IB.

5/28/2008 9:33 AM  
Anonymous Bewildered said...

To Cherilyn (See “Perspectives on the IB”):
Is the World Class Education Research a non-profit organization registered with the state of Utah?
Cherilyn said:

According to the Utah non-profit laws and regulations:

(i) no substantial part of the activities of the (non-profit organization) shall be the carrying on of propaganda, or otherwise attempting to influence legislation, and the (non-profit organization) shall not participate in , or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements) any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office except as authorized under the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, as amended;


5/31/2008 10:30 AM  
Anonymous John Pace said...

This is the most inane argument ever.

No one disputes that the IB curriculum covers everything otherwise required by the State Office of Education.

No one disputes that the IB curriculum constitutes a demanding and effective college prep program.

No one disputes that, for a large number of HS kids, college prep is a legitimate goal.

No one has offered one scintilla of evidence that the IB program is somehow cost IN-effective. All evidence is to the contrary.

No one has offered one single example of an UN-American value or ideal taught as part of the IB curriculum. In fact that is the biggest red herring ever! The whole connection between universal public education in America as envisioned in the 19th century, and democracy, is NOT some sort of indoctrination. It was to produce the literate and critically thinking citizens capable of analyzing public issues and voting intelligently. The then-radical notion of universal public education had nothing to do with teaching American values. It had everything to do with equipping us to participate in our beautiful form of democracy.

This is exactly the strength of the IB program! The IB program coincides with the exact reason we became the first great nation on earth to promote universal public education!

That any of this even needs to be discussed is proof positive that whatever we experienced in OUR public education fell woefully short of producing critically thinking and literate citizens even worthy of democracy.

This is freakin’ crazy!!!

Very (very) sincerely,
John Pace, SLC

6/11/2008 2:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

John Pace,

You used an awful lot of exclamation points in your post. That suggests a lot of emotion to me. I'm just curious as to what drives your passion, denial, and accusations of insanity towards those who have a differing opinion from you. Just as I don't presume to speak for everyone or anyone except for myself, I don't think you have the right to state "No one disputes" as a blanket statement and expect intelligent, reasoning individuals to take you seriously.

I for one, dispute the following:

No one disputes that the IB curriculum covers everything otherwise required by the State Office of Education.

Many States require 1 year of U.S. History, and 1/2 yr. of Participation in U.S. Govt. and a 1/2 year of Economics. I am of the opinion that the IB HL History of the Americas course does not meet these requirements and is giving our students the short shrift in U.S. History and Govt while spreading the time to a more "global" focus.

No one disputes that the IB curriculum constitutes a demanding and effective college prep program.

One type. But not for everyone. Not for a pre-engineering student, or a theatre arts major. I have not seen any empirical evidence to support IBO's claim that it is "effective" other than anonymous hearsay.

No one has offered one scintilla of evidence that the IB program is somehow cost IN-effective. All evidence is to the contrary.

IB in a small district costs at least $150,000 more a year to run than just AP and that's not including teacher salaries. IB is superfluous.

No one has offered one single example of an UN-American value or ideal taught as part of the IB curriculum.

Well, yes, many have, but you refuse to acknowledge it. It's all there in B & W, the UNESCO "Peace Education" curriculum agreement thru 2010, the UN annual funding to IBO.......

This is exactly the strength of the IB program! The IB program coincides with the exact reason we became the first great nation on earth to promote universal public education!

Whoaaaa Bessie! We? As in USA? I believe as a Federal Republic we have encouraged and promoted education in underprivileged regions of our planet. That is NOT the same as promoting UNiversal education for all. That is something I most DEFINITELY dispute.


6/14/2008 5:46 PM  

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