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Friday, May 30, 2008

Guest Blog: IB Myth v. Fact Analysis

By Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
Director, World Class Education Research

Since 2005, controversy has dogged the International Baccalaureate Programme. But does the criticism have merit? IBO has responded on their website.

This is my analysis. For each statement, below, I have answered TRUE, FALSE or PT/PF (partly true, partly false), and given a short explanation. Here is a more thorough document, complete with citations. I have compiled an even more extensive overview on the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme. If readers would like more information they can contact me.

The IB was developed for the purpose of creating an ‘international education system’.” PT/PF.
The founders were truly internationalists, liberal, and humanist in philosophy. The original idea was to provide an education that would provide continuity for transient League of Nations employees’ children (later of the U.N.). To this day, the mission of the international school re-mains different from a national or state school. The international school is not concerned with developing a national identity. That was not - and is not - its intent. A state school should examine why a curriculum constructed for students who are living abroad and who are transient is being used in schools whose student body is not transient and should develop an identity to the state and nation.

“The IB is only for private and international schools.” PT/PF.
The international schools that so many Americans speak so highly of from their experience living abroad are usually the privately-run IB programs that have a high tuition averaging around $25,000 a year per student. The IBO curriculum is in about 400 U.S. schools, public and private, and over 2,000 schools in 125 countries. The IBO is a business that plans to bring the IB to as many schools - public, charter, or private - as possible. Again, the mission of an international school is different from a national/state school. So in that regard, the IB is more appropriate for transient students living abroad.

“The IBO promotes a left-wing agenda, socialism, disarmament, radical environmentalism, and moral relativism, while attempting to undermine Christian religious values and national sovereignty.” TRUE.
A review of speeches given by its founders and contemporary leaders show an array of progressive (leftist) thought that include all of the above. Former IB Deputy Director Ian Hill delivered a speech on the purpose of international education to the Disarmament Forum identifying the organization’s political persuasion.

Desmond Cole, the recently deceased director of the United Nations International School in NYC, and one of the key leaders in the development of the IB gave a speech which supported the idea that no war is ever justified - only the war on poverty, want and hunger.

An Internet search of IB teacher websites shows a predominantly leftist thought process. The U.N. and UNESCO share the leftist ideals of redistribution of the wealth (for achieving “sustain-ability”), world citizenship, disarmament, and environmental policies whether or not scientific research warrants it. The solutions require that wealthy countries redistribute their wealth to developing countries through taxation.

History is taught from a regional perspective, rather than a national view.

The perspective of the teacher certainly could make a difference. However, because the curriculum takes a holistic, interdisciplinary approach (educating outside the traditional “three R’s”), the tests require politically correct answers and test in the “affective domain” - attitudes and values. One can logically reason that those who are internationalist and progressive in their own personal political philosophy would be more attracted to teaching in an IB program in the first place, so a more leftist philosophy is what a parent can expect. (More later on this point.)

It must be remembered that President Reagan withdrew the United States from UNESCO primarily because of its un-American views and leftist policies. The U.S. did not re-join Until 2003. Even then, the Heritage Foundation issued an unheeded warning.

Secretary of Education Rod Paige spoke to UNESCO, and even acknowledged the work of that organization in providing the Education for All Framework at Dakar as the parallel to the U.S.’ current plan - No Child Left Behind. Those who do not subscribe to the progressive, anti-American policies of UNESCO will not be supportive of NCLB, nor the progressive educational models that stem from any UNESCO partnership.

The claim that the IB might be anti-religious stems from two sources: First, the IB applies a narrow scope of analysis to “what is knowledge” and “how we know truth.” This is applied to a holistic curriculum (not limited to the 3 R’s, but including religious and ethics beliefs), which requires religion or the faith-based domain to be examined under the same microscope as the scientific method and empirical research. That which cannot be proven through epistemology can-not be true or fact. Although it would be unlikely that one’s religion would be outwardly attacked in a classroom setting, the critical thinking/higher order thinking skills process is persuasive.

The other concern is most likely that the UNESCO/IBO partnership, the connection between UNESCO’s Education for All and the U.S. Secretary of Education’s reference to its U.S. parallel, No Child Left Behind, shows a logical connection of principles. For example, Education for All Article 58 references allegiance to the United Nation’s universal Declaration on Human Rights Article 26 (a document the U.S. has not yet ratified), and in particular, its commitment to pro-mote U. N. activities.

U.N. activities include the promotion of its policies, declarations, accords, treaties and agreements, of which The Earth Charter is one. UDHR also declares that the purpose of education is to develop the affective domain (meaning to change children’s values and attitudes), to socialize students to the ideals of the UDHR. Among these ideals are same gender marriage rights, abortion rights, and immigration rights. No immigrant can be denied the right to change their nationality (which could explain why schools are hesitant to identify illegal students and why the U.S. Congress has been paralyzed in building a border fence or in keeping illegal immigrants from entering the country.)

The Earth Charter has put pressure on the U.S. to redistribute the wealth to eradicate worldwide poverty, to support abortion rights and same gender marriage internationally as human rights, and it uses controversial environmental “un-science” to drive its socialist solutions. Read it for yourself. www.TheEarthCharter.org .

To simplify this connect-the-dots maze, UNESCO, the IBO and NCLB are aligned in principle. UNESCO laid out the framework for NCLB, and the IBO is a model curriculum for that framework and in partnership with UNESCO, which is the U.N.’s education arm and which endorses the UDHR. (Citations here.)

“The IB comes from a philosophy that ‘America’s foundational principles of national sover-eignty, natural law and inalienable rights are at odds with the IB curriculum and are not taught.’” PT/PF.
The IB program gives lip-service to the right of a nation to teach about the national culture first, recognizing that most countries have state requirements. (Again, this references the two separate missions of national and international schools.)

For example, all Utah students are required to take U.S. History. However, U.S. History is not an IB course. The IB approach deconstructs the national view and re-constructs a new world view - for example, the regional, pan-American view. In IB history a student can select a region, but it does not necessarily have to be the pan-American region. The student is only required to research a 100 year period anywhere from 1750 to current events.

The IB Theory of Knowledge course, central to the program, places all perspectives on the table and, in a relativistic way, values them equally (e.g.: “What I value as right may not necessarily be what you value as right, but your value has as much value as mine.”). Therefore, what is a terrorist to one nation is a freedom-fighter to another. All things being equal, who is to decide who is right and who is wrong?

“The IB is very expensive.” PT/PF.
That depends on what is being evaluated. The IB tests themselves are comparable in cost to AP tests, minus the expensive international mailing costs. However, the entire program, including professional development, facility requirements, small class size requirements, start-up costs, ongoing costs, etc. makes the IB more expensive to deliver. I went to the IBO website to order two small booklets and the total was over $300, $70+ for shipping. The most effectively run IB schools are private and have an average tuition of $25,000 per student per year. The IB pro-grams in U.S. public schools are estimated to run about 3 to 7 times as expensive as AP courses. The IB school contracts with Geneva, so the Utah State Office has not been tracking the costs.

“The IB is a non-academic ‘fad’ program and many colleges and universities will not accept IB courses as fulfilling undergraduate requirements for admissions.” PT/PF.
The IB program not only tests academic rigor, it also tests the students’ attitudes and values toward the subject matter (such as global warming, population control, and sustainability, which lead to support of international, government-run programs to eradicate poverty). As mentioned before, AP courses are accepted as college credit. Only in rare instances are IB courses used for college credit.

“The IB examination assessment is not thorough enough.” PT/PF.
That depends on what one considers “thorough.” The IB assessment is an open essay format, as opposed to a multiple choice format, which requires the student to be able to write about a particular topic. However, the students also know what they will be tested on in advance. The student must give politically correct answers in order to qualify for the highest descriptor scores.

“The IB tests and papers of American [IB] students are sent to Europe/Geneva for grading and evaluation.” PT/PF.
The tests are not only sent to Europe/Geneva; they are sent to a number of regions of the world. The student does not know whether an examiner in Thailand or in Australia will be evaluating their essays, nor of what cultural or political persuasion that examiner will be. The answers must be written from a “neutral” position. (That in itself is an oxymoron.)

The international perspective of the IBO and its partner UNESCO embrace the Dakar Framework - Education for All - the U.N. parallel for No Child Left Behind. The Dakar Framework embraces The Earth Charter and other U.N. agreements promoting sustainability and global citizenship. Because of the partnership with UNESCO, the standard is outlined in the various protocols and agreements on human rights and sustainability. Those are the ideals to be demonstrated in the essays.

One of the most respected of leaders in global, international education is Robert Muller, former U.N. Assistant Secretary-General and 1989 recipient of the UNESCO Peace Education Prize. He summed up the philosophy of UNESCO and its partners in a daily email I received from him just as I was concluding this “Myth v. Fact” response. (What good timing he has.)
"In the year 2000 there were 3500 days left to the year 3000. If every day produces [sic] in their skyscrapers come up with more products, more markets and more advertisements, this might mean the end of our planet if the world population is not stabilized, if the rich countries continue to increase their consumption of often needless products, needless travel, car and airplane uses unnecessarily, which might lead to disasters. So would the increase of the world's poor population by several more billions in the next decades.

"Why not come up instead with ideas to conserve our precious planet and create a just and humane society. Please, governments and all great peoples of the world, elevate your heads and your minds to do it.

"There is also need for a World Parliament of the Future, which would look as far at least as the year 3000 ahead of us. It would bring together the best visionaries, thinkers and futurologist of the planet and submit their views, fears and recommendations to the United Nations.

The decision of heads of states to meet every few years in millennium 3000 meetings is a first good step. They should also create futurologist positions and even futurology departments in all their governments.”
Thanks for reading, and for all (well, most of) your previous comments in this IB discussion. I believe parents need to be aware of what their children are being taught.



113 Comments:

Blogger The Senate Site said...

Reminder: Multiple points of view are more than welcome here but keep it civil.

I'm looking at YOU, anonymous.

RC

5/30/2008 4:11 PM  
Blogger CraigJ said...

I found this article interesting:

http://www.the-tidings.com/2007/122107/domingo.htm

'IB' Program: A holistic approach to Catholic HS education

By Rocky Domingo

"What do you want to be when you grow up?" From our youngest days, we envisioned becoming doctors, ballerinas, firefighters. With costumes and toys we mimicked what we saw adults doing. Doing work. Creating things. Putting out fires.

Where in this youthful role-play did we learn to think? When was reasoning modeled to us? Who gave young children not pre-made tools, but the entire world as a resource for his or her lifework?

While children are born with limitless potential, each day their limits encroach by choices that they make or choices made for them. Should I learn a foreign language? Take up dance? Study martial arts? By the time children reach junior high, if they have not chosen a favorite sport to play year-round with camps and travel teams, they stand no chance playing in high school.

While seeking to produce informed, faith-filled graduates, Catholic educators also want them to be critical thinkers looking at the world with an eye for change, not complacence.

And by the time students enter college, just when they should be allowed the freedom to study everything and anything, they are asked to declare a major immediately and shuttled into appropriate classes without any opportunity to explore the great world of ideas and knowledge existing beyond the limits of business school or nursing school. This is one of the tragedies of living in a modern, expedient society.

Catholic education seeks to offer a remedy. Our Catholic faith has a uniquely holistic approach to faith and life, rooted deeply in philosophy and an understanding of the natural world. Throughout our history, this complementarity of faith and reason has been a cornerstone of our spirituality as well as the mission of Catholic education. The study of religion has never been confined to one class each day, but integrated throughout the course of study so students learn how to apply faith in all facets of life.

Put another way: Catholics look at the world through the lens of our faith. There is no time that a Catholic can leave his or her religion at the door and act merely as an accountant or a teacher or a politician. Our faith is integral to who we are.

In addition to uniting faith and reason, this holistic model of Catholic education seeks to preserve the concept of a whole person, not a compartmentalization of thinking. While choosing majors may be inevitable and budget-conscious, allowing students the opportunity to study the interconnection of knowledge and ideas most fully allows them to grow.

To this end, Catholic high schools are beginning to introduce the International Baccalaureate Program (IB) to their students. IB is an interdisciplinary course of study providing students academic excellence in a program that encourages thinking across traditional disciplinary boundaries. IB provides high level course work in an integrated program, allowing students to think expansively.

The IB Program itself is not faith-based. However, it integrates beautifully with the goals of Catholic education. While seeking to produce informed, faith-filled graduates, Catholic educators also want them to be critical thinkers looking at the world with an eye for change, not complacence.

The capstone course to the IB curriculum is the class, Theory of Knowledge. This year-long course is based on the idea that knowledge can be gained through a variety of sources and, once obtained, ought to be used as the foundation for every action, every decision. Catholics know that knowledge comes to us not only from the material world, but also through revelation and the Word of God. Catholic high school students taking the Theory of Knowledge class understand in greater detail what it means to be a person of faith enlivened by truth.

Integrating the study of religion and the modeling of faith into the IB Program is a challenge that Catholic educators are excited to take. The precepts of our faith blend harmoniously with the integrated search for truth of IB. In addition, students are taught the skills of effective communication, written and verbal, that are key to discipleship.

Finally, IB builds fruitful communities of learning among our students. The two-year program (juniors and seniors) places students together for each class, allowing them to develop relationships of trust and caring. These smaller classes, where students work together and educators expand the classroom model, create a thriving community unlike any other on campus. Vibrant intellectual pursuit meets Christian small-faith community.

Rocky Domingo serves as Religion Department Chair and International Baccalaureate Coordinator at Bishop Amat Memorial High School, La Puente.

5/30/2008 6:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Me!? You must referring to someone else with the same name.

Sincerely,

Anonymous
Executive Director, Galaxy Class Education Research

5/30/2008 6:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm still not sure what Ms. Bacon Eager and Ms. Dayton are so afraid of. That student's might ask questions? That they might think for themselves? Would you rather they just do and think what "Big Brother" orders? There is a real Orwellian tone to her "arguments" and that is what I find frightening. I, by they way, am a different anonymous simply because I can't seem to sign on to my google account. Call me anon 13

5/30/2008 8:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am yet another anonymous but I agree with anon 13 - extreme right-wing groups like Edwatch in MN, CEOPA in PA and Sen. Dayton with her "world expert" Cherilyn here are truly scary.

5/30/2008 8:53 PM  
Blogger Seagulljaap said...

Ms. Eager,

I am sure you are a delightful women, but this is getting to be absurd and blatantly offensive. Based upon this blog, I am tempted to believe that the apocalypse will be caused by the continuation of the IB program, that conservatism is man's ultimate salvation, and that war can be justified at all times.

Now let's not beat around the bush here any longer. The majority of Utah's representation is LDS and I personally believe that this clearly has some play into this discussion, despite the fact that it has been cleverly masked. You claim that IB is anti-religious based upon the statements of its founders. Does this extend to teachers in Utah? I fail to see how the statements by the leaders of an organization demonstrate a liberal pedagogy. I am tempted to bring up statements by Brigham Young or Harold B. Lee on Blacks. Just because leaders say things that are inappropriate does not indicate the character of those involved in an organization.

You also claim that IB's anti-religious movement incites men to question "how we know truth." What in the world is wrong with this? In Christianity, and in particular in Mormonism, we are taught not to suppress our intellectual doubts but to explore them. To merely toss them aside and treat them as if they do not exist, or refusing to examine and explore critically is more of a concern to me than perhaps even over examining some things.

Why am I reminded of the Eagle Forum right now?

Jacob

5/30/2008 9:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I love you Jacob! A great example young man. anon 13

5/30/2008 9:37 PM  
Blogger Tom said...

Unfortunately, your comments come across as half-truths, mixed liberally with straw men, ad hominem and association fallacy. I'm afraid that by replying I'll be granting your "proofs" legitimacy they don't deserve.

#1. [int'l education system] You're implying that Utah high schools implementing the IB program do nothing to encourage a national identity, but don't mention until much later that all Utah high school students are required to participate in a full year of U.S. History and a half-credit of U.S. Government/citizenship. You do correctly identify transient students as one of the several reasons for a consistent curriculum--this is true for our statewide standards as well. It's one of many reasons. All public schools have a "transient" component (i.e. students moving in and out).

#3. [leftist agenda] This, your largest section (and seemingly the ill-disguised reason for writing the whole article), if rife with associational fallacy. You make no actual connection (only association and innuendo) between the curricular standards and your claim of "leftism." I could just as easily say most public university professors are liberals. I have no evidence for it (other than anecdotal, which isn't actual proof), but I suspect I could get most Utahns to agree with the claim. It doesn't mean the such an conclusion is incorrect, just that I've advanced no actual evidence to support the claim.

#5.[cost] IB does cost money, but you're confusing real and incremental costs to your advantage. The argument also succumbs to the fallacy that correlation equals causation. (e.x., The most effectively run non-IB private schools are also likely to have tuition in excess of $25k/y.)

#6. [college credit] You say "Only in rare instances are IB courses used for college credit." Rare instances, like Univ of Utah, Utah State and BYU. (I stopped after going three for three.) I don't know the histories of the other universities, but I'm familiar enough with BYU to assert that it now offers more credit for IB programs than it did just over decade ago.

I've written enough, but I hope I've demonstrated why I'm having difficulty finding credibility in your arguments.

5/30/2008 10:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seagulljap:

I fail to see how the statements by the leaders of an organization demonstrate a liberal pedagogy. I am tempted to bring up statements by Brigham Young or Harold B. Lee on Blacks. Just because leaders say things that are inappropriate does not indicate the character of those involved in an organization.

As do most supporters of IB. To me this represents a major source of denial and ignorant defense of an educational program. Our schools would be in big trouble if we carried this same laissez faire attitude to groups like the KKK or Scientology. IBO does not follow the protocol of full disclosure as a non-profit in this country. I have tried for four years to determine what the salary of IBO's Director General is. Even through Mr. Jay Mathews who speaks at IBNA annual conferences, I could not obtain this information. IBO does not want it known. Why?

I can tell you how much the CEO of The College Board makes ($600,000+). I can tell you how much the CEO of ETS makes ($800,000+). How much did George Walker and Jeffrey Beard earn as IBO Director Generals? Before American taxdollars are spent on a program with controversy surrounding it, we have a right to know. Transparency is not one of IBO's strongpoints.

You can call me Anon2

5/31/2008 5:52 AM  
Blogger Oak said...

I have no problem with students studying international history and thinking about solving world problems. The issue with the IB is everyone involved in it has a clear agenda and that agenda is very much at odds with personal freedom. You will solve problems "their way" or you don't understand the problem. "Overpopulation? Abortion and birth control." "Global poverty? Have the rich countries cough up the dough to equalize."

Would someone taking an exam dealing with these issues that has someone in Asia grade it find agreement with an answer like, "perhaps an uprising in poor countries led by dictators would lead to greater freedom for the citizens." "F" would be stamped on that, never mind the parallels to our own U.S. revolution.

Any education that is top down instead of local driven creates more problems than it solves. NCLB should be abandoned and the U.S. Department of Education should be dismantled. The only thing that should ever happen at a federal level education-wise, is a meeting of state education departments to collaborate on setting standards in math and the sciences. Then take it home and let the state and local districts implement it.

You want more money in education? Get the feds out of it and return those dollars to the states to use at home. I'm pretty sure our school teachers could use the raise and are going to teach the same thing they've always done. There's no real benefit to having a federal DOE.

Before we start teaching kids how to be good little world citizens, we'd better get our own house in order and ensure our children understand the principles of freedom our founders gave us. For example, Utah's history core doesn't mention the word "Republic" once in K-12 standards. Our kids don't know what that means, nor why our founders were so vehemently against Democracies.

Oak

5/31/2008 7:09 AM  
Anonymous Bewildered said...

To Cherilyn :
Is the World Class Education Research a non-profit organization registered with the state of Utah?
Cherilyn said(See “Perspectives on the IB”):
Yes.

According to the Utah non-profit laws and regulations:


(i) no substantial part of the activities of the (non-profit organization) shall be the carrying on of propaganda, or otherwise attempting to influence legislation, and the (non-profit organization) shall not participate in , or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements) any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office except as authorized under the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, as amended;

http://corporations.utah.gov/pdf/nonprofitarticles.pdf

5/31/2008 10:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bewildered, I think you answered your own challenge.

"no *substantial* part"

NPO's lobby and promote their issues all the time. They just can't make that most of what they do.

anon...4?

5/31/2008 10:44 AM  
Anonymous Bewildered said...

Anonymous said:

Bewildered, I think you answered your own challenge.

"no *substantial* part"

NPO's lobby and promote their issues all the time. They just can't make that most of what they do.

To Anonymous:

You may be looking for “power struggles” but I am waiting for Cherilyn’s factual reply to this question with primary sources about the World Class Education Research, and not for your cynical view of the issue.

5/31/2008 11:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oak:

Excellent post.

-anon2

5/31/2008 12:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bewildered: "power struggles" and "cynical view"? What are you talking about? NPO's certainly lobby legislators all the time for their causes. If anything, you have a cynical view of this NPO, perhaps because you don't agree with it???

5/31/2008 5:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Too bad this blog has resulted to partisan name calling. According to Utah State law, the Legislature has oversight of education. IBO, has oversight of IBO, which is against the law. It makes no difference if the IBO is Liberal, Conservative or Moderate, IBO having oversight of curriculum and classes is against Utah Law.

5/31/2008 6:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you Ms Eager for a job well done!
We are fighting this in our town/state.
Most of the parents here know what this is about and do not want it.
We are facing a downturn in the economy so spending money on this kind of foolishness is unwarranted at least.

5/31/2008 8:30 PM  
Blogger mitch said...

Ms. Eagar, what is non-christian, left-wing, about taking care of the poor, hungry and needy? Sorry I didn't throw anti-war in there as well. Perhaps you should read Mosiah 4: 26. "And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants." Perhaps you should read your Book Of Mormon instead of wave it in others faces.

5/31/2008 8:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To learn more about IB and other programs used for school 'reform' such as Goals 2000, please join USPEIN@yahoogroups.com

USPEIN-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Thanks!

- Jane, 35 year teacher and moderator

5/31/2008 8:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tom,

While it is true that universities accept some IB courses for college credit, you must be aware that AP students get much higher quality credit. As I mentioned on this thread, Utah universities don't give very good credit to IB HL classes in math and science. IB is notorious for its weak math and science curriculum compared to AP.

The overwhelming majority of American universities give lower quality credit to IB. From the best schools in the country like MIT to schools you've never heard of like South Alabama in Mobile, college administrators recognize that IB is an inferior program.

5/31/2008 10:35 PM  
Blogger Oak said...

Mitch, where on earth did your comment come from??? We're discussing the IB, not scripture and taking care of the poor.

If you're referring to the IB method of teaching people that we should be taking care of the poor, you'd be making a backwards argument. King Benjamin wasn't speaking to the government, he was speaking to the people. People should take care of people. It's not governments job to take from the rich to give to the poor for a whole host of reasons, but my number one reason would be along the lines of Abraham Lincoln's reasoning on welfare. It doesn't do the giver any good.

If I want to be charitable, I will give and I'll receive the blessings for it. If you say world or national government can do a better job of giving than me, that's my fault and my prerogative.

As I raise my children, I'm going to teach them that verse so they know their own personal duty and know how to take thinking and feeling action, not how to be a drone that doesn't feel and lets government take and place their money for them with abortionists and whatever other "charities" government has been lobbied by. The soul wastes away when there isn't anything to challenge it to greatness such as the act of giving in the face of our own personal trials.

6/01/2008 6:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"From the best schools in the country like MIT to schools you've never heard of like South Alabama in Mobile, college administrators recognize that IB is an inferior program."~anon2

This is a lie. Most colleges, and in particular MIT, give the same credit for IB and AP:

http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/before/advanced_placement_international_exams/index.shtml

6/01/2008 7:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To anonymous:

You quoted the wrong anonymous, but it doesn't matter because you are still wrong. Perhaps you should check your information before calling someone else a liar.

http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/mityou/fall_recruitment_travel_schedule/meeting_faq.shtml

MIT only recognizes HL IB exams, and the vast majority of those need to be 7's. If you read the credit policy, those exams can earn a student 12 general credits. Realize, IB HL courses are two years, so that would be 6 credits for each year. You with me so far?

AP 5's earn 9 credits at MIT. A student could take 2 AP courses/exams for the one IB HL. 9 x 2 = 18. 18 > 12 Not equal.

-Anon2

6/01/2008 8:30 AM  
Blogger Seagulljaap said...

Anon2-

"To me this represents a major source of denial and ignorant defense of an educational program."

Your response to my comments does nothing to address the issue of IB. You actually used this quote to attack me, while I was actually talking about Ms. Eager's attacks on an organization based upon the quotes of its founders. What the founders of IB and if they disclose their salary is a trivial matter, at best. Do you know how much your neighbor makes? How is this relevant to the pedagogy of IB?

6/01/2008 8:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon2,

No, I quoted you, and you are a liar.

Obviously, we are talking about IB HL vs AP. Those are recognized (or not recognized) equally by MIT.

6/01/2008 9:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ms. Eagar states that the IB assessment is not thorough enough and that "That depends on what one considers “thorough.” The IB assessment is an open essay format, as opposed to a multiple choice format, which requires the student to be able to write about a particular topic. However, the students also know what they will be tested on in advance. The student must give politically correct answers in order to qualify for the highest descriptor scores."

This is simply not true. Each subject area is different. In English there are multiple assessments, both written and oral. Students know in general what they might be tested on, for example, on one exam they will either have to write a commentary on a poem or on a prose passage. They do not, however, have any idea what the actual pieces will be. This year the prose piece was C.S. Lewis, a writer they have not studied but many are familiar with.

On one of their oral exams they randomly get a passage from Shakespeare or perhaps from several poets they have studied in detail and then they have 20 minutes to plan an oral commentary. After the planning time, they speak for ten to twelve minutes on the piece they were given while they are tape recorded. The oral assessments, by the way, are graded by the teacher, not by an outside grader.

Get your facts straight Ms. Eagar.

Anon 1

6/01/2008 9:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seagulljap:

You were talking about Ms. Eager's "attacks" on IBO, I referred to the quality of your "defense" of IBO. If you want to take that personally, that's your problem, I did not attack you as a person.

I don't pay school taxes to my neighbor. My neighbor's income is made in private industry and is his business. Public monies being used to pay a non-profit should only be paid to NP corporations which operate under the American premise of full disclosure. IBO does not. Whether you consider this to be irrelevant, is not the point.

IBO pedagogy is a separate issue.

Anonymous:

Apparently my simple example was too difficult for you and IB teaches you that 18 = 12. Anyone that ignorant does not deserve any further responses from me.

-anon2

6/01/2008 10:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 7:44 a.m.:

Looking at the very link you provided, it appears to me that a passing grade on an AP test is equivalent to passing the Freshman Essay Evaluation at MIT.

IB students have no way of earning equivalent credit.

6/01/2008 10:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stop lying, Anon 2.

We were talking about IB HL and AP scores and the college credit afforded for these at MIT, not the number of semesters spent studying for these exams (and in my book as a college professor, it is much better to study the material in depth over two years than cram it all in one and just memorize enough, without understanding, to pass a multiple-choice AP test). Credit-wise these are exactly equivalent at MIT. No, wait... in fact, AP Physics B earns no credit at MIT while IB Physics HL earns the same credit as AP Physics C.

6/01/2008 10:34 AM  
Blogger Seagulljaap said...

Anon2,

I am sure you are a delightful individual. So anything below is not intended as a personal attack, but rather a critique of your statements.

The reason I took it as a personal attack is because your reasoning makes no sense to me. I was discussing IB pedagogy in relation to the teachings of IB in Utah. Then you counter with a discussion of the disclosure of salaries. You then proceed to proclaim that IB pedagogy is a completely different issue. You were the one who brought it up and then I proceeded to respond questioning what this has to do with IB pedagogy. You beat around the bush, responding with something about public disclosure and chastising me for bringing up IB pedagogy.

Again, no personal attack, but people in glass houses should not be throwing stones. Especially ones like these.

"Apparently my simple example was too difficult for you and IB teaches you that 18 = 12. Anyone that ignorant does not deserve any further responses from me. "

6/01/2008 10:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous:

The 1st Anonymous stated:

This is a lie. Most colleges, and in particular MIT, give the same credit for IB and AP:

There was no differentiation for SL or HL IB made, so please don't try and pretend that there was.

For a "college professor", you seem to have difficulty with the concept of "equivalent":

We were talking about IB HL and AP scores and the college credit afforded for these at MIT, not the number of semesters spent studying for these exams (and in my book as a college professor,

That's right. We were talking about college credit at MIT. And once again, a student can take 2 AP exams to the one IB exam. The 2 AP exams can yield 18 credits as compared to the IB 12 credits. What about this 2nd grade concept are you unable to grasp? There may be one or two courses where this is different, but overall, this is the MIT policy. You can stamp your feet and call me a liar all you want, but the truth is right there in the link I provided.

6/01/2008 11:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

seagulljap:

Oh, I'm not so delightful. In fact, I get downright aggravated with IB supporters who constantly twist my words and then try to accuse me of doing the same with theirs.

YOU were the one who stated that you couldn't understand how the beliefs of IBO's "leaders" related to the IB pedagogy. My point, showing how IBO as an organization refuses to disclose the most basic
financial information about its "leaders" is critical. It points to a basic lack of honesty and integrity within the IBO which is at odds with American values and most certainly must trickle down into the product it is selling.

-anon2

6/01/2008 11:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with anon 2s self-assessment. Not so delightful and oh, so rude.

6/01/2008 12:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From the MIT website link in earlier post.

AP "Mathematics

For a score of 4 or 5 on the BC Calculus examination, credit is given for 12 units of subject 18.01 Calculus I. For scores lower than 4, no credit is given. Although no credit is given for the Calculus AB exam, a score of 4 or 5 places you into the accelerated Calculus sequence.

Vs.
IB Mathematics: For a score of a 6 or 7, credit will be given for 12 units of subject 18.01, Calculus I. For scores lower than 6, no credit is awarded."


I don't really see the difference. Looks like the same credit to me.

More important than whether or not a student gets college credit for either an AP or IB exam is that colleges see that students took advantage of rigorous programs at their high schools. AP works for some students. IB works for some students. No program that I know of works for ALL. Otherwise, why would be have "special education," "Gifted Education," "Technical education," and so on?

anon 1

6/01/2008 1:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't really see the difference. Looks like the same credit to me.

That's because you are only looking at MATH, one subject. As I said, there are one or two exceptions to the 18>12 rule.

Try seeing the forest through the trees.

-anon2

6/01/2008 3:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 10:34 said:

Credit-wise these are exactly equivalent at MIT.

Anon 10:34, you are conveniently leaving out MIT's communication requirement.

From the site helpfully posted (yet nevertheless misinterpreted) by anon 7:44, we learn:

A score of 5 on either the [AP] Language and Composition or [AP] Literature and Composition test is considered equivalent to passing the Freshman Essay Evaluation (FEE).

Unfortunately for IB students, the same link shows that there is no way to earn the same standing at MIT by taking any IB test. In my opinion, this puts to rest the issue of whether or not MIT treats AP and IB the same. MIT clearly favors AP.

6/01/2008 3:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To anon 2:

On the opening feed the senate site said "keep it civil."

Is it necessary to respond to people's legitimate questions with insults?

I simply said I didn't see a difference and you pointed out that I was only looking at math. Yes. You don't have to be so nasty about it.

Quit being a bully

anon 1

6/01/2008 4:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"In my opinion, this puts to rest the issue of whether or not MIT treats AP and IB the same. MIT clearly favors AP."~Anon2

Only in your opinion. If you compare two students, one taking AP Physics B, and the other IB Physics HL (both general physics courses covering many topics), then the IB student will get credit at MIT, while the AP student will not. Following your logic, I should conclude that MIT favors IB in this case.

6/01/2008 5:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:26 PM:

Only in your opinion. If you compare two students, one taking AP Physics B, and the other IB Physics HL (both general physics courses covering many topics), then the IB student will get credit at MIT, while the AP student will not

However the AP Student who scores a 5 on both parts of the AP Physics C exam scores the same credit as the IB HL Physics. Very convenient of you to point to Physics B instead of Physics C, as noted.

AND, once again, I say that the Physics requirement and the Calc course are the EXCEPTIONS to the 18>12 rule, which clearly shows that MIT does NOT award equal credit for AP and IB, OVERALL.

-anon2

6/01/2008 6:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, but if you want to compare apples to apples, you should compare two general physics courses offered in both programs.

Also, WRITING IN ALL CAPS does not help you make a point. And your 18/12 argument is rather ridiculous, if you ask me. Compare apples to apples please, not how many semesters one preparares for an exam.

6/01/2008 6:08 PM  
Anonymous Cherilyn Bacon Eagar said...

To All:

I intend to respond to the inquiries directed at my post as my time permits. I’ve enjoyed reading the lively discussion and promise to respond. :-)

Briefly, on the AP v. IB college credit discussion, some comments:

1. The discussion on the Senate Site is beginning to look a lot like the discussion at Bob Morse’s blog (U.S. News and World Report: http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2008/5/5/in-defense-of-international-baccalaureate.html . Check it out.

2. I told the moderator before I submitted my summary that my greatest concern was that I had to summarize a lengthy manuscript quickly to meet the publication deadline, and that in so doing some details might be left out resulting in a leap of logic. In that regard, it is true that the IB credits at the standard level (SL) rarely transfer to college credit. Higher Level (HL) credits transfer, but with variables depending on the subject and the accepting institution. To that end, there is no consensus from one institution to another and from one subject to another.

However AP remains the more popular and widely accepted. I agree with the professor on the Morse Code blog who has had considerable experience with the shortcomings of both the AP and the IB credits. He believes the best way to go is to “scrap” both and to administer the college’s own placement tests.

3. My discussion of the exams referred specifically to the external assessment exams, which are graded by examiners from around the world. That was not to omit the fact that there are other internal assessments and orals.

4. I interviewed several students during their external exams and one student explained that because they knew what the questions would be in advance, it was easy. Now, if you review the Morse Code blog, you will see that there is concern about the integrity and transparency of the IBO.

First, an organization that can terminate a contract with a school not passing muster will be able to report better results. That is happening as I write. (Tyler, TX) If this program is truly “education for all” a low-performing school would not be terminated. It is, however, a convenient way to inflate the statistics.

Second, the method of reporting the number of students sitting for exams is in dispute, some reporting two exams when only one was actually taken - another way to inflate the statistics.

Third, one cannot know whether student performance is due to the talent and intelligence the student brings to the IB program in the first place or whether it is the IB itself that affects student performance.

For example, on one tour of an IB school, the administrators brought in their top IB student to talk to us about how the program helped her get into an elite college. What they didn’t know was that I knew her and her family (before she was an IB student), enough to know that she was already a high achiever and that she would have qualified for entrance in any elite college with or without the IB.

Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research

6/02/2008 12:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cherilyn:

However AP remains the more popular and widely accepted. I agree with the professor on the Morse Code blog who has had considerable experience with the shortcomings of both the AP and the IB credits. He believes the best way to go is to “scrap” both and to administer the college’s own placement tests.

The professor who recommended scrapping both AP and IB in favor of college placement exams is someone with a decidedly pro-IB agenda. Why do you think this is a good idea? This person is only recommending this because IB has so much difficulty receiving the same credit at universities as AP.

In these hard economic times and with tuitions at an all time high, saving a semester or a year's worth of credit can make or break some families. It is also an economic ploy to put more money in the university coffers. Let's not recommend throwing the baby out with the bathwater just because the new kid in town doesn't fit in the tub, too.

6/02/2008 5:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cherilyn:

First, an organization that can terminate a contract with a school not passing muster will be able to report better results.

I don't know if you have ever filed a FOI on a school district's "contract" with IBO, but I have. There is no such animal. The only written agreement school districts ever sign with IBO is the initial application for authorization. Districts are free to cancel "allegiance" to IBO at anytime. The situation in Tyler is interesting. While I agree with the TX gentleman who pointed out that Tyler being threatened with loss of authorization could result in better results being reported, according to the article I read, the 2nd IBO evaluation had not yet taken place. It seems to me more like a situation where the Tyler administrators dropped IB to save face. We don't actually know if IBO would have cancelled Tyler's authorization or if it would have continued cashing checks for the next five years, despite terrible results. Furthermore, I have never seen evidence of a school having its IB authorization pulled. Have you?

-anon2

6/02/2008 5:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The professor who recommended scrapping both AP and IB in favor of college placement exams is someone with a decidedly pro-IB agenda. Why do you think this is a good idea? This person is only recommending this because IB has so much difficulty receiving the same credit at universities as AP. ~Anon2

Here is what that professor (Cornell Ph.D.) had to say about this:

In general, as a university professor, I am in favor of abandoning automatic credit and placement for IB and AP and awarding credit based on each university's placement exams. If students know the material well enough for the particular university's standards, they will place out. I've seen too many students who got AP credit for calculus but really don't know it and are not ready for the more advanced courses. I am glad to see that some departments (e.g. UPenn's chemistry, which awards only general credit for AP/IB exams but will not place out students who have not passed departmental placement exam) are already doing that.

Another poster with a Ph.D. in biology from MIT wrote:

I would be in favor of scrapping credit by AP/IB exam and just going by the college's own placement tests. That is the only way to gauge whether students have adequate knowledge of the subjects in which they wish to earn college credit.

And yet another professor said:

And if your kids get into a really top school, its probably a good idea to go ahead and take the course again unless they pass that particular school's placement test--and if they do that, they don't need AP or IB anyway.

I trust the readers can judge for themselves who has an agenda here and who speaks from experience.

6/02/2008 8:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Readers:

Anonymous of 8:57 AM earned her PhD at Cornell, however is currently a Prof. at the University of Pittsburgh and is one of the activists from Upper St. Clair, PA who is a member of WAVES, the USC group which backed the ACLU lawsuit against the school board majority to keep IB in the schools after the Board voted to phase it out.

This individual has appointed herself as my personal Gestapo, vowing to police my "spread of propaganda about IB" on the Internet.

Knowing the facts, I trust the readers here can judge for themselves who has an agenda and who seeks the truth.

-anon2

6/02/2008 9:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon2 is clearly mistaken about my identity. Does he/she have access to my IP address? Does he/she think there is only one professor out there supporting the IB program? Sounds like paranoia to me.

Regardless, I am quite sure that disclosing (even erroneously) posters' identities and posting other people's personal information on the web is against the rules on this blog. I hope the moderators take notice.

Again, I hope the readers make their own conclusions about Anon2's credibility.

6/02/2008 9:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Readers:

Please note, I never mentioned Anonymous 9:23 AM's real name. However, after years of being tracked by her, I have no need of her IP address, her writing style speaks for itself. Accusations of paranoia and complaining to the moderator are her modus operandi.

-anon2

6/02/2008 10:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

years of being tracked by her...accusations of paranoia

I have no idea who has been "tracking you" for "years" but paranoia does sound about right.

6/02/2008 11:10 AM  
Blogger The Senate Site said...

Geez Anons, give it a rest.

6/02/2008 12:30 PM  
Anonymous Cherilyn Bacon Eagar said...

Good comments on the AP/IB discussion. One final comment on this point, which can get rather tedious after a while:

I am not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bath water. I’m suggesting that the bath water’s gotten too dirty to put the baby in it. If money is the issue, there’s another tub out there that could be used: Concurrent Enrollment.

One of my sons completed his first year of college during high school through concurrent enrollment. At the time, he took these college classes on the college campus. These courses are now taught on the high school campus. The national organization is called the National Alliance of Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships. More information is at http://www.nacep.org/concurrentenrol.html

Utah would do well to strengthen those opportunities.

One of the problems with AP/IB is that it encourages schools at the secondary and higher education levels to standardize with a one-size-fits-all model. Another problem is that it puts the federal government in the driver's seat.

As far as the agenda for making money, someone is going to make money. The money will either be made by the AP, the IBO or the university. I’d rather give it to the university directly. Funding varies depending on state policy. In Utah CE classes are “free” to the student (covered by the state).

Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research

6/02/2008 8:45 PM  
Anonymous Cherilyn Bacon Eagar said...

Bewildered:

I’ve served on several steering committees and boards and have assisted some fledgling organizations with governance issues. I have seen some rather unusual and troubling situations arise within young non-profits, which usually can be traced to problems in governance and structure.

This prompted me to research and analyze the Bylaws of some of the country’s best-run non-profits. It developed into a 200-page manual on governance for those who are interested in starting a non-profit organization, including sample Bylaws, organizational charts and policy and procedures recommendations.

Most of my time is spent researching and writing. When WCER is about to overstep the IRS definition for a “c 3” in the lobbying area, I will file for an extension, and then if needed I will set up a “c 4.” If I find it necessary to endorse a candidate, I will establish a PAC. If there is a particular issue that requires more than the IRS allows a c 3, I will set up a 527.

Until then, WCER is doing just fine as a 501 (c)(3).

Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research

6/02/2008 9:07 PM  
Anonymous Cherilyn Bacon Eagar said...

Anon3:

You asked if I am afraid that students might ask questions.

Answer: Of course not. I have been a teacher for over 30 years in a variety of settings. Asking questions that prompt thinking is the number one tool I have used to engage students.

The issue, as I described it, is that scientific inquiry, epistemology, and axiology have their place, and that place is not to sit in comparative judgment over non-scientific, faith-based matters of truth.

IB is an exemplary European (Oxford/Geneva) pedagogy and theory that has been used over the last century in Europe. The results are observed in Europe’s highly secularized and dying culture today.

Anon3 said: "Would you rather they just do and think what "Big Brother" orders? There is a real Orwellian tone to her "arguments" and that is what I find frightening."

It sounds as if you are fairly fearful yourself, but we do agree on the Big Brother point. “Big Brother” is exactly what I would like to avoid in education and in all areas of government. Putting education under the umbrella of the federal government and/or an international governing or policy-influencing body is not my idea of holding down the cost nor the accompanying bureaucracy required to manage it from afar.

Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research

6/02/2008 9:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cherilyn:

Regarding your comment about the "dirty bathwater" and preference for concurrent enrollment, please consider that NYU is eliminating credit for dual/concurrent enrollment as of the Class of 2013. As one of the top institutions of learning in this country, it is possible many other colleges will follow suit.

http://www.nyunews.com/news/2008/05/19/University/Nyu-CollegeLevel.Courses.Wont.Get.You.Credit-3373114.shtml

-anon2

6/03/2008 6:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

IB Gives Future Engineering Students Short Shrift

http://www.mlive.com/saginawnews/news/index.ssf/2008/06/some_top_saginaw_townshi\
p_heri.html


James Shinners has his heart set on winning admission to the
University of Michigan's College of Engineering.

The 17-year-old Heritage High School junior had plans to stack his
senior class schedule with tough courses.

Second-year Advanced Placement calculus. Human anatomy. Advanced
Placement physics. Fifth-year Spanish.

There's one problem, the honor student says: He can't take them all.

"The conflicts are a very big deal," said Keenan, 16. "If a student
isn't affected by this, they know someone who is."

Some students theorize that as the International Baccalaureate course
offerings expand at Heritage, Advanced Placement courses, and the
students who take them, are getting the short shrift.


This is exactly what happens in schools that were AP and which adopt IB. The design of the IB program creates terrible scheduling problems and forces the elimination of Honors and AP courses.

-anon2

6/03/2008 6:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no need to keep AP courses that duplicate the existing better IB courses.

6/03/2008 6:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no need to keep AP courses that duplicate the existing better IB courses.

While it may make you feel better to repeat this IB mantra, it is a statement which holds zero credibility.

First of all, Heritage HS doesn't even list its course guide online. It currently claims to offer 10-12 IB courses. We don't know what they are, or how many are SL and how many are HL.

Secondly, U. of Mich only recognizes HL IB courses/exams

http://www.admissions.umich.edu/academics/ibguidelines.html

The Office of Undergraduate Admissions generally awards credit for I.B. Higher Level examinations passed with scores of 5 or above. The University does not give credit for standard/subsidiary level examinations.

Therefore, if Heritage HS only offers SL IB Math or SL IB Physics, our aspiring engineering student is out of luck.

6/03/2008 9:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While it may make you feel better to repeat this IB mantra, it is a statement which holds zero credibility.

Given that I am a college professor familiar with both programs, I'd say it has far more credibility than you think. What are your credentials?

Therefore, if Heritage HS only offers SL IB Math or SL IB Physics, our aspiring engineering student is out of luck.

Or rather, they are in luck - they will take the real college courses in these subjects and will be better prepared for more advanced courses.

6/03/2008 9:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh. It's you. I'll spare the Senate Site any further responses to your posts. In the future, please identify yourself as Anonymous666 so I will know to ignore your posts.

-anon2

6/03/2008 10:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't take my word for it - read the literature

From the 2002 National Research Council Report "Learning and Understanding: Improving Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in U.S. High Schools" by a panel of university professors and high school teachers:

"... IB program, including its biology course, rests on the importance of interdisciplinary connections in learning. The IB program is exemplary and far superior in this regard. The AP program should consider changes that would promote interdisciplinary learning...."

and

"The AP and IB courses, while including some of the best education in the subject currently available at the secondary level, tend in general to be out of date, too broad, and too inflexible in their curricula. Moreover, they often ignore the results of recent research on science learning, pedagogy, and assessment, and do not conform to the pedagogical standards of the NSES and INSES. The panel judges IB to be superior to AP in many respects, but making AP more like IB will not be enough; rather, systemic changes are required in the preparation of teachers and the teaching of biology at all levels."

6/03/2008 10:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since Senator Dayton and Cherilyn Eager Bacon are most specifically concerned about IB's lack of attention to our American values and history, I prefer to cite The Fordham Report which has the following to say about the IB HL History of the Americas course:

http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/APIB.pdf

This option does a respectable job of covering several important U.S. history topics—such as the
Articles of Confederation, the Constitution, and the Civil War, as well as some seminal leaders,
such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Abraham Lincoln. But because the course
focuses on all of the Americas, it cannot cover all the U.S. material that an American student
should learn. Among the people and topics important for the revolutionary and early political
period, for example, and yet not included in the IB syllabus: Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin,
the Boston Tea Party, Lexington and Concord, and the tensions between Jefferson’s and
Hamilton’s visions of the country in the Washington administration.
Beyond this slighting of some important material, however, lies a bigger problem. It is not jingoistic
to believe in American exceptionalism, or in the responsibility of U.S. schools to teach students
not only about U.S. flaws, but also about what has made our nation a world success story.
A good U.S. history course explains why large numbers of immigrants consistently want to come
here, and what the basic values are that most Americans share. Certainly many policymakers
and much of the public expect as much. But the broad scope of the Americas option all but
ensures that any such discussion would be muted......[SNIP].......In short, this option is neither detailed nor rich enough to serve as the sole course in U.S. history
for American high school students.


-anon2

6/03/2008 10:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whoops, I don't know why I am having such problems with your name Cherilyn. That should have been Cherilyn Bacon Eager. Sorry. ;-)

-anon2

6/03/2008 10:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It should be noted that unlike the NRC report I have quoted above, which reports the results of investigation by four panels (one panel for each subject considered) of teachers and college professors, the Fordham report relied on a single reviewer for each subject and thus reflected an opinion of just that one individual. Different reviewers often have very different opinions, which is why scientific articles are always peer-reviewed by several reviewers.
Something to think about in terms of credibility of Fordham report.

6/03/2008 11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree that The Fordham Report is flawed. In fact, the Professor who reviewed the Math component asked for his name to be removed from the report because the committee changed his grading causing IB to be reflected higher than AP. I cited this report because it is basically the only one Jay Mathews refers to in his attempts to bolster IB and still, it points out serious deficits in IB.

For those of you who would like to read the entire NRC report, here is the link:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309074401

I think it is most important to note that the NRC report recognizes that IB does not represent its courses as college level, while AP does.

-anon2

6/03/2008 11:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it is most important to note that the NRC report recognizes that IB does not represent its courses as college level, while AP does.

The fact that College Board represents its courses as college level does not mean they actually are. Those of us working in academia know otherwise. The NRC report also says as much. The truth is, "one size fits all" does not work in education, and the levels of AP, IB and college courses differ dramatically from high school to high school and from college to college. Which is why I agree with the professor advocating placement exams only credit policy.

Both AP and IB programs provide a great preparation for college and offer courses that do include some material covered in most colleges. But they are not equivalent to college courses.

6/03/2008 11:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From the NRC report -
recommendation of the biology panel:

Colleges and universities should be strongly discouraged from using performance on either the AP or IB examination as the sole basis for automatic placement out of required introductory college courses for biology majors and distribution requirements for nonmajors.

6/03/2008 11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Readers:

Ask yourselves, why does Anonymous want to focus solely on the NRC report? The answer is simple. Whether these courses have been reviewed by committee or individuals, really is not the issue. The NRC report only deals with Math and Science.

Frankly, I don't have all that much of a problem with IB Math and Science. But you can't just "buy" individual IB courses as you can with AP, you must purchase the whole package which, yes, includes History, English and the infamous TOK. And it is within these subjects that my objections remain focused.

-anon2

6/03/2008 12:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I chose to focus on the NRC report because it provides an objective analysis of strenghts and shortcomings of both programs. I am not aware of such analysis for other subjects.

Anecdotally, however, the IB teachers and students in my children's school love IB History, English, foreign languages and especially TOK. These courses are quite popular in the school. The only complaints I ever heard about these courses are from extreme right-wing conservatives like Allen Quist and organizations such as Edwatch, Eagle Forum, CEOPA etc. Their baseless claims are not what I call an objective analysis by any measure.

6/03/2008 12:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not aware of such analysis for other subjects.

This is a disingenuous statement to say the least, as you just criticized the Fordham Report above which does compare and contrast those subjects. Then in the next breath, you expect .gov to help fund IB based on your anecdotal IB happy tales because, why? According to you, the only people who criticize IB happen to hold Conservative viewpoints which you brandish as "baseless". Keep going, I know it will only be a matter of a post or two before you start calling me ignorant and uneducated.

-anon2

6/03/2008 1:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As I already explained, Fordham report does not represent an objective analysis, since it only involved one reviewer for each subject. Something similar to NRC report for non-science subjects would certainly be good to have.

Find me a non-extreme-right-wing-conservative group that provides an objective and unbiased criticism of the program. As for the level of your knowledge, I do not need to point out the obvious.

6/03/2008 2:06 PM  
Blogger The Senate Site said...

Easy tiger. Keep it civil. Both of you. Thanks.

6/03/2008 2:09 PM  
Blogger Seagulljaap said...

Anon2-

What exactly is your main beef with IB? You seem so aggressively involved to remove it from schools, make sure that there is no funding for it, and abolish it as if it comes straight from Satan himself. I am asking a genuine question. You can talk all you want about non-disclosure of salaries, and supposed IB pedagogical issues, but I have yet to see you write anything that would indicate your experience with IB.

I personally elected not to do IB because I feel it is unnecessary to fulfill my educational goals. For many, however, it is a wonderful program that provides strong academics, service opportunities, and other activities that strengthen students. By the way, the service tends to benefit the community. But then and again, next thing you know, we could just be headed toward socialism with all that social activism of IB students. Scary, isn't it?

6/03/2008 2:46 PM  
Blogger mitch said...

Whatever, happened to local control? Shouldn't every individual (school) be able to decide which is best? Sounds like those who have been touting "local control" (Utah legislators) want to only have it if they can control it! You can only have local control if you do what we want you to. Maybe you just need to do a better job of informing parents and students of options at their schools. If the public doesn't want it, it will just go away.

6/03/2008 3:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some interesting discussions.

As a teacher of both IB English HLA1 (juniors) and AP English Literature and Composition (usually seniors),I would like to point out a few things.

1. Both courses are rigorous, but they are different. IB is a two year course with four parts to its syllabus. I, along with the senior teacher, chose the books our students study. IB did not tell us what we had to teach. Quite a few of the works are studied in AP as well.

2. IB requires an assessment for each part of the syllabus. They are both externally and internally assessed. AP essentially has three assessment aspects: multiple choice, an essay on a prose passage , and essay on poetry, and an essay where students choose which novel or play they can write on. All of them are assessed externally. IB requires an oral component which AP does not.

3. As "seagulljaap" pointed out, IB is not for everyone. What program is? The point is that IB offers another alternative for students. Some students choose the AP route. Some choose concurrent enrollment. Some choose IB. Once again, the point is that they have a choice. I thought that was the big rallying cry in Utah. Isn't that what the school voucher thing was about?

4. The state does fund AP, concurrent enrollment, and gifted education. All Representative Moss was asking for was equity.

5. More IB classes can cause scheduling problems, but in the hands of a master scheduler, it can be worked out. At my school more IB classes has not eliminated AP classes. It has attracted more students who are interested in attending our school, which they can because of open enrollment laws. Because of our increasing enrollment, we have also had more kids sign up for AP classes. Next year I will have 6 AP English Lit. classes and another teacher will have 6 AP United States History classes. That's pretty phenomenal.

6. I take exception to anonymous' comment that "... they are not equivalent to college courses." I don't think junior IB is but my AP English class is the equivalent to a college level survey course. Last year CollegeBoard instituted the AP Course audit and had many college professors examine our course syllabi and if they determined the course was equivalent, they approved. I have had many former students say that my course was often more challenging than their lower division college courses. In fact, a former student and recent Harvard graduate told me she had better instructors in her AP courses in a Utah public school than she did at Harvard. Another student who is at Bard in upstate New York, a school whose student body is primarily made up of the East Coast prep school crowd, said that she was just as prepared or even more so, than those kids. She commented that she got a private school education for a public school price.

Instead of focusing on all that is bad, why don't we focus on something good?

Jill

6/03/2008 4:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jill,

Regarding "college level": I am sure that you and some other high school teachers do teach the material better than some, perhaps even many, college professors. This is likely more often the case in humanities than in sciences and math, from my experience as a college professor. Yes, AP course syllabus has to be approved now (that's a very recent phenomenon), but the fact that the syllabus was approved by some college professors by itself does not ensure that the course is taught at the same level or even includes the same material as the one offered at whatever college or university a student will actually enroll in. The truth is, courses at different universities are different. I know for a fact that introductory math and physics courses at my university include material that is not covered in the corresponding AP courses. And like it or not, in science and math at least it is important that the teacher's knowledge extends beyond what he or she teaches to students, so that he or she has the "big picture" that is necessary to really understand (and hence be able to teach well) the concepts involved. Unfortunately, many of our science and math teachers are simply not at that level. It takes much more than simply approving syllabi to ensure the quality of instruction necessary to call the course "college level".

6/03/2008 5:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seagulljaap:

What exactly is your main beef with IB? You seem so aggressively involved to remove it from schools, make sure that there is no funding for it, and abolish it as if it comes straight from Satan himself. I am asking a genuine question. You can talk all you want about non-disclosure of salaries, and supposed IB pedagogical issues, but I have yet to see you write anything that would indicate your experience with IB....[SNIP]....Scary, isn't it?

Do you have to stick your hand in a fire to know it's hot? Do you have to invest in a company with shaky financials and lose money to know it is a bad investment?

Perhaps I have not stated it here, but my position on IB in American schools is as follows: I have no problem with private schools offering IB. I have no problem with IB being offered as a magnet program in a public school where students from different neighborhood districts choose to attend. I do have a problem with IB being forced upon public schools by a small group of "reformist" supporters who think it is the best thing since sliced bread and anyone who dares to disagree is labeled a xenophobe or right-wing extremist.

My experience with IB is as a parent, taxpayer and witness to what has happened in my own district since IB was adopted. Our HS is the only one in my district. It is small, 650 students 9-12. IB requires all scheduling to revolve around its Diploma program. A small school cannot schedule or fill Honors, AP and IB classes. Because of the huge financial investment a district makes in IB, administration makes IB the only "choice" for students when it comes to selecting courses. It's either IB or the most basic level. As the IB teacher here stated, "IB is not for everyone". I agree. But in small schools like mine, if you don't take IB, you have to attend the most basic classes which contain all of the discipline problems. Since IB was implemented, our numbers in the basic classes have increased. To me, this is evidence of dumbing down our school under the guise of improvement.

I'm pretty sure I addressed the community service aspect already but I'll say it again. There's nothing wrong with community service. In fact, both of my children earned community service credit before we ever had IB. But I believe it should come from the heart, not because IBO forces you to do it as part of its CAS requirement.

-anon2

6/04/2008 5:51 AM  
Anonymous Cherilyn Bacon Eagar said...

Anon3:

You asked if I am afraid that students might ask questions. Answer: Of course not. I have been a teacher for over 30 years in a variety of settings. Asking questions that prompt thinking is the number one tool I have used to engage students.

My philosophy of education, as I described it, and contrary to IB philosophy, is that scientific inquiry, epistemology, and axiology have their place, and that place is not to sit in comparative judgment over non-scientific, faith-based matters of truth. That does not mean that rational thought does not have a place.

Please get a copy of the Theory of Knowledge for the International Baccalaureate, written by the one of the IBO’s top consultants Richard van de Lagemaat and you will see how the IB is designed to be taught. The TOK syllabus that the IB schools in Utah use (and which can be downloaded from the IBO website www.IBO.org) implements the same principles.

Remember, the IB, as well as the rest of the curricula in U.S. schools, is teaching the whole student holistically, not just the reading, writing and arithmetic side of the student. The IB is testing values, attitudes and behaviors (van Loo, 171). On page 176-177, it even recommends a debate between a believer and an atheist.

No Child Left Behind (Sec. of Ed Rod Paige calls it the parallel to UNESCO’s Education for All Framework) also requires national testing of politically correct attitudes, values and behaviors. The NAEP is another similar assessment.

IB is a European (Oxford/Geneva) pedagogy and theory that has been used over the last century in Europe. The results are observed in Europe’s highly secularized, skeptical and dying culture today. An illustration of the kind of thinker IB leaders hope to produce is illustrated in this recent commencement address by Michael Shermer, renowned atheist (note his religious “transformation” through the scientific method and critical thinking) and publisher of Skeptic magazine. You can read it at www.Skeptic.com

What does this have to do with IB? According to IB consultant Marc van Loo in his manual, Implementing the International Baccalaureate, the goal of the IB curriculum is to produce the “skeptic.” (van Loo, 171) IB wants neither the believer nor the nihilist. It wants the SKEPTIC, which is a philosophical term for agnostic. Which is a polite term for atheist. Which is the only option for a truly intellectual member of the academy on today’s college campuses. That is the lesson C.S. Lewis learned, and it still holds today. And that is why educators tend to be so arrogant and condescending to those who don't share their IB credentials.

Shermer’s speech extols the virtues of the IB Bible and its god: Critical Thinking; its politics and social policy: “Liberal Democracy;´ and its religious tenets: “Spirituality” and its worship of the “Cosmos” (in other words – the religion of the pantheist). The highest value is to save the planet from the global crisis.

This is the world view/religion we now teach in classrooms across America. This philosophical foundation is written into the curriculum. Unless an individual has been a student of philosophy and is well-versed in world views, it is understandable how an individual can profess two conflicting world views without even knowing it. My observation is that this is why so many teachers can embrace the IB philosophy and also claim to be “believers” on Sunday.

[Anon3 said: "Would you rather they just do and think what "Big Brother" orders? There is a real Orwellian tone to her "arguments" and that is what I find frightening."]

It sounds as if you are fairly fearful yourself, but we do agree on the Big Brother point. “Big Brother” is exactly what I would like to avoid in education and in all areas of government. Putting education under the umbrella of the federal government and/or an international governing or policy-influencing body (bereft with fraud and mismanagement) is not my exactly my idea of holding down the cost nor the accompanying bureaucracy required to manage it from afar. In fact, the internationalist approach to governance is Big Brother. The national approach to education with national testing and national curriculum (No Child Left Behind) is Big Brother at its best.

Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research

6/04/2008 9:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Europe’s highly secularized, skeptical and dying culture today

Europe's dying culture? LOL! Anyone who has been to Europe recently, as I have many times, can see that nothing could be further from the truth.
In any large European city you can spend each evening enjoying opera, ballet, chamber music or symphony. Not to mention the museums etc. And European governments, unlike ours, do a lot to support arts and music. Europe's culture is alive and well, thank you very much.

IB wants neither the believer nor the nihilist. It wants the SKEPTIC, which is a philosophical term for agnostic. Which is a polite term for atheist.

Putting your complete misunderstanding of IB aside, have you ever taken a philosophy course? In any case, you need to (re)take it. You don't seem to know or understand the definitions of basic terms even, and yet here you are lecturing about the "evils" of TOK. Typical of Edwatch-like propaganda.

6/05/2008 5:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cherilyn's assertion that Europe's highly secularized culture is dying is one that deserves due consideration and not arrogant dismissal and condescension on the part of Anonymous. Her assertion is based on reality, not visits to the opera house and ballet. Anonymous's deliberate disregard of the term "secularized" and focus on the arts is typical of an IB supporter's disingenuous methods of debate. Here are two articles which support Cherilyn's position:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41589

http://hnn.us/articles/12295.html

Please note neither are from EdWatch. And if you have any further doubts as to the truth of Cherilyn's statement, just ask Bridget Bardot:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7434193.stm

6/05/2008 7:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sorry, forgot to add -anon2 to the above post

6/05/2008 8:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Her assertion is based on reality

What reality???

6/05/2008 10:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here are two articles which support Cherilyn's position

The first article you posted is from Business Reform Magazine; it says:

"Business Reform Magazine provides real biblical answers for real business issues."

The second is by a Roman Catholic theologian.

So yes, it's not Edwatch but these are hardly unbiased and trustworthy sources of information.

The reality is that Europe is doing just fine, culturally and otherwise.

6/05/2008 11:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So yes, it's not Edwatch but these are hardly unbiased and trustworthy sources of information

On what grounds do you base your statement that these sources are biased and untrustworthy? Could it be because you only "see" the highly secularized version as trustworthy and unbiased? Could it be that being of a "highly secularized" mindset, those who have differing opinions from you and also happen to be religious are, in your eyes, scoundrels and ignoramuses? That only the secular viewpoint can be right?

-anon2

6/05/2008 12:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I detest extremism of any kind: left, right, ultra-religious and anti-religious. If you want to make a point, do try to use some critical thinking and logical reasoning instead of quoting fringe magazines that provide "biblical answers".

6/05/2008 12:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/05/2008 2:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/05/2008 4:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/05/2008 5:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/05/2008 8:45 PM  
Blogger The Senate Site said...

¡Ya basta!

6/05/2008 9:17 PM  
Blogger The Senate Site said...

Seriously.

Thank you to Cherilyn, Craig, Oak, Tom, young master Seagulljaap and all the incarnations of anonymous who have added substance and perspective to this discussion. It helps.

To Anon 1 and Anon 2... please re-read my very first comment, way up near the top of this post.

Gracias amigos.

6/05/2008 9:46 PM  
Anonymous Cherilyn Bacon Eagar said...

In response to the comment about European culture. I am not referring to cultural arts. I'm referring to the culture as a whole. Google these key words to find the report that shows you the true picture of European culture.

"report evolution of family europe"

Where is the equity in disallowing an individual who professes a religious (i.e. Biblical) belief while only allowing the individual who professes a secular humanist belief (i.e. non-Biblical)? Is this not the “narrow” view?

T.S. Eliot understood that all education is religious in nature. There is no such thing as a "neutral position" in a public school room or anywhere. As I've already stated, that is an oxymoron.

I have one more comment on the Catholic school phenomenon, but it's too late and I will get to this tomorrow.

Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research

6/06/2008 1:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I fail to see how this report "proves" that European culture is "dying". It most definitely does not.

6/06/2008 6:16 AM  
Blogger Oak said...

For one thing, Europe is failing to assimilate Islamic immigrants who are demanding they be allowed to have Sharia law in their towns. They move in, gain a strong foothold in an area, gain control of local government, and the culture swings in their direction. It's happening here in America as well because our immigration system is broken and we've become P.C. as a country. The only way to properly maintain your cultural identity as a nation is to have in place the things that make you unique and ask that those who want to live among you share those same values. Europe is so into multiculturalism that they're giving themselves fits now with rioting of people who feel disenfranchised that government doesn't constantly kowtow to their demands.

This is my first experience with the Senate Site blog. I thought it would be an interesting discussion to follow. I have no qualms about opposing points of view but I must say I've been quite disappointed in the tone of the emails. I would like to thank Cherilyn for maintaining her cool under attack from people who could have asked their questions in a nicer way. To me that's the sign of one who understands "a soft answer turneth away wrath." I think there are a few others that could adopt this as their motto.

Oak

6/06/2008 6:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oak:

Excellent post.

-anon2

6/06/2008 7:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

European laws are actually much stricter than the US ones as far as immigrants are concerned. In France students in public schools are not allowed to wear head scraves or other religious head covers (which I view as a good thing), and in Switzerland in order to gain citizenship, you must have a Swiss neighbor certify that you share the country's values and have assimilated enough. In general, it is much harder for foreigners to feel "at home" in Europe and become a citizen than it is in the U.S., precisely because Europeans value their identity and culture a lot. Sure, there are problems but nothing on the scale that would lead one to conclude of decay of European culture, in any sense of the word. The doomsday scenarios of Islamists taking over towns and practicing Sharia law are frankly ridiculous.

6/06/2008 7:43 AM  
Blogger Oak said...

Anon, I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but there are plenty of sources discussing the tragic events happening in Europe. Here's one link that specifically talks about France's problems.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=44913

Here's an article about Islam making huge inroads in promoting their religion in America (while of course, Christianity is not allowed because that wouldn't be P.C.).

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=63872

Our country's way of life is under constant assault by people who think that acceptance (multiculturalism) leads to peace, when it's really appeasement that leads to disgust from the other side for the lack of moral courage and values, which leads to tension and confrontation.

If we truly want peace, we will stand for something and invite others to join us in our stance for freedom and democratic principles, rather than bend the knee and kiss the feet of everyone who takes advantage of our P.C. environment by demanding that we bring them in retaining their own form of culture.

Oak

6/06/2008 8:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suppose if one reads way too much WorldNetDaily or watches too much Fox News and actually believes their propaganda, one can get ideas like these. But the reality is that although there were some recent incidents of violence, Europe is dealing quite well with these problems, and the danger to its culture is very much exaggerated. I get my information from the more reliable sources such as the New York Times (or Herald Tribune while I am in Europe) and National Public Radio, as well as from talking to my many European friends and colleagues.

6/06/2008 9:22 AM  
Blogger Oak said...

I suppose if one reads way too much New York Times or listens to too much NPR and actually believes their propaganda, one can get ideas like these. But the reality is that although they fail to report news that doesn't fit their own agenda, recent incidents of violence in Europe show Europe is trying their best to cover the truth of the situation they are in.

Quote: "I get my information from the more reliable sources such as the New York Times (or Herald Tribune while I am in Europe) and National Public Radio, as well as from talking to my many European friends and colleagues."

I'm not as refined as Cherilyn so I'll just say WOW that's arrogant...and dangerous. I listen to NPR, read a variety of sites, and in general try to do what I can to overcome my own ignorance, but it ain't gonna happen by a steady diet of the NYT or NPR.


Oak

6/06/2008 9:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This story from NPR highlights many of the fine points Oak has brought to the table:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18077497

-anon2

6/06/2008 9:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I listen to NPR, read a variety of sites, and in general try to do what I can to overcome my own ignorance.~Oak

Not enough, apparently.

Nobody is denying that there are problems, in Europe and elsewhere. It's the doomsday scenario of "dying Europe" that I find truly ridiculous. Europe has been dealing with terrorism for a long time. The sky is not falling.

6/06/2008 9:55 AM  
Blogger Oak said...

"not enough apparently"

That's funny. Why do you bother with us mortals? Isn't there a prime directive among your people that deals with non-interference in a culture that isn't as enlightened as you? Do the gods of your multicultural idolatry even know you're here messing with us???
:)

I've often wondered as I've been trying to fix math education in Utah, what amount of evidence is actually required to convince someone of a position they oppose which is incorrect.

A couple years ago I came across an article in the June 2006 Scientific American magazine called "The Political Brain". The article examined 30 people who were half (self-described) "strong" Republicans and half "strong" Democrats. They then presented statements from George Bush and John Kerry to the subjects where Bush and Kerry contradicted themselves, thus creating a conflict for the subjects to reconcile. Then, using MRI technology, the subjects were examined to see which parts of their brains they used to analyze the statements. What they found was very interesting. Once a person has drawn a conclusion (like *BUSH ROCKS* or *BUSH SUCKS*, they tend to use emotional centers of the brain to ignore contrary facts and then reinforce their position emotionally rather than reasoning through the contradiction for the truth. It takes extraordinary effort for someone that has made their mind up to overcome their partisan feelings and view rational information objectively. If you're interested in the Scientific American article, you can download a pdf here:
http://www.oaknorton.com/thepoliticalbrain.pdf

Oh, and then for anyone that would like to read an objective, non-emotional article about how Europe is dying because they're not having enough kids to compensate for their death rate, here's an article:

http://www.arconics.com/elearning/creating_effective_headings/dos_and_donts_a4_full.html

Other articles for people to ignore:

Putin offers nearly 10k to women to have more children...(it's helping too)
http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2006/06/grappling_with.html

Russia becoming a Muslim state
http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/211

Oak

6/06/2008 10:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oak:

To me that's the sign of one who understands "a soft answer turneth away wrath."

You tried. Believe me, I understand. But unfortunately, the wrath of anon1 knows no bounds and cannot be tamed. As you so correctly pointed out, it is dangerous, indeed.

-anon2

6/06/2008 10:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FYI: I am not Anon1. I did assign myself any number.

As for "Russia becoming a Muslim state", that's the craziest thing I have heard so far. Amazing how much garbage some people here read.

6/06/2008 10:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's a great IB assignment - Let's make flags with Nazi Swastikas in between our lecture on global warming! What a lovely thing to hang in the classroom and bring home to Mom and Dad!



http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b5a_4charter-r.6447159jun06,0,6639893.story

6/06/2008 11:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What do Nazi Swastikas have to do with the article you linked?

6/06/2008 11:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, I see. The picture shows students pretending to be American soldiers and fighting terrorists/Nazis. Read the article instead of making conclusions from pictures.

6/06/2008 11:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A picture's worth a 1,000 words. It is totally educationally inappropriate to have students replicating swastikas as part of a lesson. It is offensive at the most basic human level.

-anon2

6/06/2008 12:25 PM  
Blogger Oak said...

What’s funny Anon, is that you make no attempt to convince anyone of anything. You just belittle them and say what moron's they are for not knowing the facts that you have chosen to believe in. You decry others’ attempts to have a meaningful dialog with name calling and vitriol, while maintaining that your unsupported arguments are superior. Please prove to me that Europe isn’t dying. Show me their reproductive rate is sustainable. Show me the riots are fictional. Make your case or go troll some other board where civility isn’t important to discussing issues. Or are you just fully indoctrinated that if you can’t convince, then condemn?

Attention moderators: If you want to run a board that is useful both to yourself and to participants, I suggest you enforce some basic rules which would have allowed Anon's IP address to be blocked a while ago and had his/her posts removed. Thus far he/she has contributed nothing to the discussion. Being that this is my first experience with the Senate site, it may also be my last. I don't intend to waste my time bickering on boards with people who can't make a rational argument.

Oak

6/06/2008 1:26 PM  
Anonymous Tom said...

lol. I wondered how long it would be before Godwin's Law kicked in.

My, how the topic has strayed. Maybe it's time to shut down the thread ... or maybe just walk away.

6/06/2008 1:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/06/2008 1:53 PM  
Anonymous Anon2 said...

Tom:

So let me guess, you're for IB, right?

As the invoker of Godwin's Law, you stay true to its definition:

For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.

The topic is IB. The photograph is of elementary children in a PA school. I didn't make the swastika. It's there. Clear as day. It is also clear as day that it is not a reproduction from a book, but rather a student created piece. Unable to defend or have the backbone to admit, "Hey, yeah, that's pretty screwed up" you defend such boldly blatant evidence of inappropriate educational practices (being shown in a promotion piece and a badly written article for IB), by attempting to invoke your pseudo-intellectual Godwin's Law.

Please.

Oak:

I'm afraid this is what happens in any forum where people attempt civil discussion about IB. She has even stalked me in a hometown blog just to throw barbs. I just want to provide you with a more National IB picture so you understand some of the dynamics. Senator Dayton's (Utah) original objections to IB were partially based on an article in the eagle forum. In that article, a Commissioner's Appeal that I filed in New York was referenced for bringing to light questions about IB. That is my connection and interest in this forum, I set some legal groundwork to questions that have never been answered.

Anon1 will seek to disrupt, condemn, attack, insult and disband any discussion that in anyway reflects poorly on IB. Reasoning is useless. She IS Borg.

6/06/2008 2:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

She has even stalked me in a hometown blog just to throw barbs.

What on Earth are you talking about? Being paranoid again?

And once again, I assigned myself no numbers so if you are referring to me, don't call me anon 1 - that's a different poster.

6/06/2008 2:22 PM  
Anonymous Tom said...

I'm afraid you've mischaracterized Godwin's Law: "As a ... discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

"Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a caution against the use of inflammatory rhetoric or exaggerated comparisons ..." (Wikipedia)

It's not a pseudo-intellectual anything. It's a humorous internet meme that suggests the level of discourse has devolved. I didn't look at the article. I don't care to.

6/06/2008 2:44 PM  
Blogger The Senate Site said...

Guys, I am bored to tears.

I'm also headed into the mountains and will not have the connectivity (hopefully) to babysit mean-spirited commenters trying to pick a fight. Anon 1:53, I'm looking at you.

Let's call this meeting adjourned. If you feel you have something you still need to add please Email it to us.

Thanks again to all of you who contributed constructive insight to the discussion. (I particularly appreciated Oak's notes on the Scientific American article. Fascinating. Still pondering that one.)

Best,

RC

6/06/2008 3:45 PM  

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