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Friday, May 30, 2008Guest Blog: IB Myth v. Fact Analysis
By Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
Director, World Class Education Research Since 2005, controversy has dogged the International Baccalaureate Programme. But does the criticism have merit? IBO has responded on their website. This is my analysis. For each statement, below, I have answered TRUE, FALSE or PT/PF (partly true, partly false), and given a short explanation. Here is a more thorough document, complete with citations. I have compiled an even more extensive overview on the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme. If readers would like more information they can contact me. The IB was developed for the purpose of creating an ‘international education system’.” PT/PF. The founders were truly internationalists, liberal, and humanist in philosophy. The original idea was to provide an education that would provide continuity for transient League of Nations employees’ children (later of the U.N.). To this day, the mission of the international school re-mains different from a national or state school. The international school is not concerned with developing a national identity. That was not - and is not - its intent. A state school should examine why a curriculum constructed for students who are living abroad and who are transient is being used in schools whose student body is not transient and should develop an identity to the state and nation.“The IB is only for private and international schools.” PT/PF. The international schools that so many Americans speak so highly of from their experience living abroad are usually the privately-run IB programs that have a high tuition averaging around $25,000 a year per student. The IBO curriculum is in about 400 U.S. schools, public and private, and over 2,000 schools in 125 countries. The IBO is a business that plans to bring the IB to as many schools - public, charter, or private - as possible. Again, the mission of an international school is different from a national/state school. So in that regard, the IB is more appropriate for transient students living abroad. “The IBO promotes a left-wing agenda, socialism, disarmament, radical environmentalism, and moral relativism, while attempting to undermine Christian religious values and national sovereignty.” TRUE. A review of speeches given by its founders and contemporary leaders show an array of progressive (leftist) thought that include all of the above. Former IB Deputy Director Ian Hill delivered a speech on the purpose of international education to the Disarmament Forum identifying the organization’s political persuasion. “The IB comes from a philosophy that ‘America’s foundational principles of national sover-eignty, natural law and inalienable rights are at odds with the IB curriculum and are not taught.’” PT/PF. The IB program gives lip-service to the right of a nation to teach about the national culture first, recognizing that most countries have state requirements. (Again, this references the two separate missions of national and international schools.) “The IB is very expensive.” PT/PF. That depends on what is being evaluated. The IB tests themselves are comparable in cost to AP tests, minus the expensive international mailing costs. However, the entire program, including professional development, facility requirements, small class size requirements, start-up costs, ongoing costs, etc. makes the IB more expensive to deliver. I went to the IBO website to order two small booklets and the total was over $300, $70+ for shipping. The most effectively run IB schools are private and have an average tuition of $25,000 per student per year. The IB pro-grams in U.S. public schools are estimated to run about 3 to 7 times as expensive as AP courses. The IB school contracts with Geneva, so the Utah State Office has not been tracking the costs. “The IB is a non-academic ‘fad’ program and many colleges and universities will not accept IB courses as fulfilling undergraduate requirements for admissions.” PT/PF. The IB program not only tests academic rigor, it also tests the students’ attitudes and values toward the subject matter (such as global warming, population control, and sustainability, which lead to support of international, government-run programs to eradicate poverty). As mentioned before, AP courses are accepted as college credit. Only in rare instances are IB courses used for college credit. “The IB examination assessment is not thorough enough.” PT/PF. That depends on what one considers “thorough.” The IB assessment is an open essay format, as opposed to a multiple choice format, which requires the student to be able to write about a particular topic. However, the students also know what they will be tested on in advance. The student must give politically correct answers in order to qualify for the highest descriptor scores. “The IB tests and papers of American [IB] students are sent to Europe/Geneva for grading and evaluation.” PT/PF. The tests are not only sent to Europe/Geneva; they are sent to a number of regions of the world. The student does not know whether an examiner in Thailand or in Australia will be evaluating their essays, nor of what cultural or political persuasion that examiner will be. The answers must be written from a “neutral” position. (That in itself is an oxymoron.) One of the most respected of leaders in global, international education is Robert Muller, former U.N. Assistant Secretary-General and 1989 recipient of the UNESCO Peace Education Prize. He summed up the philosophy of UNESCO and its partners in a daily email I received from him just as I was concluding this “Myth v. Fact” response. (What good timing he has.) "In the year 2000 there were 3500 days left to the year 3000. If every day produces [sic] in their skyscrapers come up with more products, more markets and more advertisements, this might mean the end of our planet if the world population is not stabilized, if the rich countries continue to increase their consumption of often needless products, needless travel, car and airplane uses unnecessarily, which might lead to disasters. So would the increase of the world's poor population by several more billions in the next decades.Thanks for reading, and for all (well, most of) your previous comments in this IB discussion. I believe parents need to be aware of what their children are being taught.
posted by The Senate Site at 2:49 PM | Link
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113 Comments:
Reminder: Multiple points of view are more than welcome here but keep it civil.
I'm looking at YOU, anonymous.
RC
I found this article interesting:
http://www.the-tidings.com/2007/122107/domingo.htm
'IB' Program: A holistic approach to Catholic HS education
By Rocky Domingo
"What do you want to be when you grow up?" From our youngest days, we envisioned becoming doctors, ballerinas, firefighters. With costumes and toys we mimicked what we saw adults doing. Doing work. Creating things. Putting out fires.
Where in this youthful role-play did we learn to think? When was reasoning modeled to us? Who gave young children not pre-made tools, but the entire world as a resource for his or her lifework?
While children are born with limitless potential, each day their limits encroach by choices that they make or choices made for them. Should I learn a foreign language? Take up dance? Study martial arts? By the time children reach junior high, if they have not chosen a favorite sport to play year-round with camps and travel teams, they stand no chance playing in high school.
While seeking to produce informed, faith-filled graduates, Catholic educators also want them to be critical thinkers looking at the world with an eye for change, not complacence.
And by the time students enter college, just when they should be allowed the freedom to study everything and anything, they are asked to declare a major immediately and shuttled into appropriate classes without any opportunity to explore the great world of ideas and knowledge existing beyond the limits of business school or nursing school. This is one of the tragedies of living in a modern, expedient society.
Catholic education seeks to offer a remedy. Our Catholic faith has a uniquely holistic approach to faith and life, rooted deeply in philosophy and an understanding of the natural world. Throughout our history, this complementarity of faith and reason has been a cornerstone of our spirituality as well as the mission of Catholic education. The study of religion has never been confined to one class each day, but integrated throughout the course of study so students learn how to apply faith in all facets of life.
Put another way: Catholics look at the world through the lens of our faith. There is no time that a Catholic can leave his or her religion at the door and act merely as an accountant or a teacher or a politician. Our faith is integral to who we are.
In addition to uniting faith and reason, this holistic model of Catholic education seeks to preserve the concept of a whole person, not a compartmentalization of thinking. While choosing majors may be inevitable and budget-conscious, allowing students the opportunity to study the interconnection of knowledge and ideas most fully allows them to grow.
To this end, Catholic high schools are beginning to introduce the International Baccalaureate Program (IB) to their students. IB is an interdisciplinary course of study providing students academic excellence in a program that encourages thinking across traditional disciplinary boundaries. IB provides high level course work in an integrated program, allowing students to think expansively.
The IB Program itself is not faith-based. However, it integrates beautifully with the goals of Catholic education. While seeking to produce informed, faith-filled graduates, Catholic educators also want them to be critical thinkers looking at the world with an eye for change, not complacence.
The capstone course to the IB curriculum is the class, Theory of Knowledge. This year-long course is based on the idea that knowledge can be gained through a variety of sources and, once obtained, ought to be used as the foundation for every action, every decision. Catholics know that knowledge comes to us not only from the material world, but also through revelation and the Word of God. Catholic high school students taking the Theory of Knowledge class understand in greater detail what it means to be a person of faith enlivened by truth.
Integrating the study of religion and the modeling of faith into the IB Program is a challenge that Catholic educators are excited to take. The precepts of our faith blend harmoniously with the integrated search for truth of IB. In addition, students are taught the skills of effective communication, written and verbal, that are key to discipleship.
Finally, IB builds fruitful communities of learning among our students. The two-year program (juniors and seniors) places students together for each class, allowing them to develop relationships of trust and caring. These smaller classes, where students work together and educators expand the classroom model, create a thriving community unlike any other on campus. Vibrant intellectual pursuit meets Christian small-faith community.
Rocky Domingo serves as Religion Department Chair and International Baccalaureate Coordinator at Bishop Amat Memorial High School, La Puente.
Me!? You must referring to someone else with the same name.
Sincerely,
Anonymous
Executive Director, Galaxy Class Education Research
I'm still not sure what Ms. Bacon Eager and Ms. Dayton are so afraid of. That student's might ask questions? That they might think for themselves? Would you rather they just do and think what "Big Brother" orders? There is a real Orwellian tone to her "arguments" and that is what I find frightening. I, by they way, am a different anonymous simply because I can't seem to sign on to my google account. Call me anon 13
I am yet another anonymous but I agree with anon 13 - extreme right-wing groups like Edwatch in MN, CEOPA in PA and Sen. Dayton with her "world expert" Cherilyn here are truly scary.
Ms. Eager,
I am sure you are a delightful women, but this is getting to be absurd and blatantly offensive. Based upon this blog, I am tempted to believe that the apocalypse will be caused by the continuation of the IB program, that conservatism is man's ultimate salvation, and that war can be justified at all times.
Now let's not beat around the bush here any longer. The majority of Utah's representation is LDS and I personally believe that this clearly has some play into this discussion, despite the fact that it has been cleverly masked. You claim that IB is anti-religious based upon the statements of its founders. Does this extend to teachers in Utah? I fail to see how the statements by the leaders of an organization demonstrate a liberal pedagogy. I am tempted to bring up statements by Brigham Young or Harold B. Lee on Blacks. Just because leaders say things that are inappropriate does not indicate the character of those involved in an organization.
You also claim that IB's anti-religious movement incites men to question "how we know truth." What in the world is wrong with this? In Christianity, and in particular in Mormonism, we are taught not to suppress our intellectual doubts but to explore them. To merely toss them aside and treat them as if they do not exist, or refusing to examine and explore critically is more of a concern to me than perhaps even over examining some things.
Why am I reminded of the Eagle Forum right now?
Jacob
I love you Jacob! A great example young man. anon 13
Unfortunately, your comments come across as half-truths, mixed liberally with straw men, ad hominem and association fallacy. I'm afraid that by replying I'll be granting your "proofs" legitimacy they don't deserve.
#1. [int'l education system] You're implying that Utah high schools implementing the IB program do nothing to encourage a national identity, but don't mention until much later that all Utah high school students are required to participate in a full year of U.S. History and a half-credit of U.S. Government/citizenship. You do correctly identify transient students as one of the several reasons for a consistent curriculum--this is true for our statewide standards as well. It's one of many reasons. All public schools have a "transient" component (i.e. students moving in and out).
#3. [leftist agenda] This, your largest section (and seemingly the ill-disguised reason for writing the whole article), if rife with associational fallacy. You make no actual connection (only association and innuendo) between the curricular standards and your claim of "leftism." I could just as easily say most public university professors are liberals. I have no evidence for it (other than anecdotal, which isn't actual proof), but I suspect I could get most Utahns to agree with the claim. It doesn't mean the such an conclusion is incorrect, just that I've advanced no actual evidence to support the claim.
#5.[cost] IB does cost money, but you're confusing real and incremental costs to your advantage. The argument also succumbs to the fallacy that correlation equals causation. (e.x., The most effectively run non-IB private schools are also likely to have tuition in excess of $25k/y.)
#6. [college credit] You say "Only in rare instances are IB courses used for college credit." Rare instances, like Univ of Utah, Utah State and BYU. (I stopped after going three for three.) I don't know the histories of the other universities, but I'm familiar enough with BYU to assert that it now offers more credit for IB programs than it did just over decade ago.
I've written enough, but I hope I've demonstrated why I'm having difficulty finding credibility in your arguments.
Seagulljap:
I fail to see how the statements by the leaders of an organization demonstrate a liberal pedagogy. I am tempted to bring up statements by Brigham Young or Harold B. Lee on Blacks. Just because leaders say things that are inappropriate does not indicate the character of those involved in an organization.
As do most supporters of IB. To me this represents a major source of denial and ignorant defense of an educational program. Our schools would be in big trouble if we carried this same laissez faire attitude to groups like the KKK or Scientology. IBO does not follow the protocol of full disclosure as a non-profit in this country. I have tried for four years to determine what the salary of IBO's Director General is. Even through Mr. Jay Mathews who speaks at IBNA annual conferences, I could not obtain this information. IBO does not want it known. Why?
I can tell you how much the CEO of The College Board makes ($600,000+). I can tell you how much the CEO of ETS makes ($800,000+). How much did George Walker and Jeffrey Beard earn as IBO Director Generals? Before American taxdollars are spent on a program with controversy surrounding it, we have a right to know. Transparency is not one of IBO's strongpoints.
You can call me Anon2
I have no problem with students studying international history and thinking about solving world problems. The issue with the IB is everyone involved in it has a clear agenda and that agenda is very much at odds with personal freedom. You will solve problems "their way" or you don't understand the problem. "Overpopulation? Abortion and birth control." "Global poverty? Have the rich countries cough up the dough to equalize."
Would someone taking an exam dealing with these issues that has someone in Asia grade it find agreement with an answer like, "perhaps an uprising in poor countries led by dictators would lead to greater freedom for the citizens." "F" would be stamped on that, never mind the parallels to our own U.S. revolution.
Any education that is top down instead of local driven creates more problems than it solves. NCLB should be abandoned and the U.S. Department of Education should be dismantled. The only thing that should ever happen at a federal level education-wise, is a meeting of state education departments to collaborate on setting standards in math and the sciences. Then take it home and let the state and local districts implement it.
You want more money in education? Get the feds out of it and return those dollars to the states to use at home. I'm pretty sure our school teachers could use the raise and are going to teach the same thing they've always done. There's no real benefit to having a federal DOE.
Before we start teaching kids how to be good little world citizens, we'd better get our own house in order and ensure our children understand the principles of freedom our founders gave us. For example, Utah's history core doesn't mention the word "Republic" once in K-12 standards. Our kids don't know what that means, nor why our founders were so vehemently against Democracies.
Oak
To Cherilyn :
Is the World Class Education Research a non-profit organization registered with the state of Utah?
Cherilyn said(See “Perspectives on the IB”):
Yes.
According to the Utah non-profit laws and regulations:
(i) no substantial part of the activities of the (non-profit organization) shall be the carrying on of propaganda, or otherwise attempting to influence legislation, and the (non-profit organization) shall not participate in , or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements) any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office except as authorized under the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, as amended;
http://corporations.utah.gov/pdf/nonprofitarticles.pdf
Bewildered, I think you answered your own challenge.
"no *substantial* part"
NPO's lobby and promote their issues all the time. They just can't make that most of what they do.
anon...4?
Anonymous said:
Bewildered, I think you answered your own challenge.
"no *substantial* part"
NPO's lobby and promote their issues all the time. They just can't make that most of what they do.
To Anonymous:
You may be looking for “power struggles” but I am waiting for Cherilyn’s factual reply to this question with primary sources about the World Class Education Research, and not for your cynical view of the issue.
Oak:
Excellent post.
-anon2
Bewildered: "power struggles" and "cynical view"? What are you talking about? NPO's certainly lobby legislators all the time for their causes. If anything, you have a cynical view of this NPO, perhaps because you don't agree with it???
Too bad this blog has resulted to partisan name calling. According to Utah State law, the Legislature has oversight of education. IBO, has oversight of IBO, which is against the law. It makes no difference if the IBO is Liberal, Conservative or Moderate, IBO having oversight of curriculum and classes is against Utah Law.
Thank you Ms Eager for a job well done!
We are fighting this in our town/state.
Most of the parents here know what this is about and do not want it.
We are facing a downturn in the economy so spending money on this kind of foolishness is unwarranted at least.
Ms. Eagar, what is non-christian, left-wing, about taking care of the poor, hungry and needy? Sorry I didn't throw anti-war in there as well. Perhaps you should read Mosiah 4: 26. "And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants." Perhaps you should read your Book Of Mormon instead of wave it in others faces.
To learn more about IB and other programs used for school 'reform' such as Goals 2000, please join USPEIN@yahoogroups.com
USPEIN-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Thanks!
- Jane, 35 year teacher and moderator
Tom,
While it is true that universities accept some IB courses for college credit, you must be aware that AP students get much higher quality credit. As I mentioned on this thread, Utah universities don't give very good credit to IB HL classes in math and science. IB is notorious for its weak math and science curriculum compared to AP.
The overwhelming majority of American universities give lower quality credit to IB. From the best schools in the country like MIT to schools you've never heard of like South Alabama in Mobile, college administrators recognize that IB is an inferior program.
Mitch, where on earth did your comment come from??? We're discussing the IB, not scripture and taking care of the poor.
If you're referring to the IB method of teaching people that we should be taking care of the poor, you'd be making a backwards argument. King Benjamin wasn't speaking to the government, he was speaking to the people. People should take care of people. It's not governments job to take from the rich to give to the poor for a whole host of reasons, but my number one reason would be along the lines of Abraham Lincoln's reasoning on welfare. It doesn't do the giver any good.
If I want to be charitable, I will give and I'll receive the blessings for it. If you say world or national government can do a better job of giving than me, that's my fault and my prerogative.
As I raise my children, I'm going to teach them that verse so they know their own personal duty and know how to take thinking and feeling action, not how to be a drone that doesn't feel and lets government take and place their money for them with abortionists and whatever other "charities" government has been lobbied by. The soul wastes away when there isn't anything to challenge it to greatness such as the act of giving in the face of our own personal trials.
"From the best schools in the country like MIT to schools you've never heard of like South Alabama in Mobile, college administrators recognize that IB is an inferior program."~anon2
This is a lie. Most colleges, and in particular MIT, give the same credit for IB and AP:
http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/before/advanced_placement_international_exams/index.shtml
To anonymous:
You quoted the wrong anonymous, but it doesn't matter because you are still wrong. Perhaps you should check your information before calling someone else a liar.
http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/mityou/fall_recruitment_travel_schedule/meeting_faq.shtml
MIT only recognizes HL IB exams, and the vast majority of those need to be 7's. If you read the credit policy, those exams can earn a student 12 general credits. Realize, IB HL courses are two years, so that would be 6 credits for each year. You with me so far?
AP 5's earn 9 credits at MIT. A student could take 2 AP courses/exams for the one IB HL. 9 x 2 = 18. 18 > 12 Not equal.
-Anon2
Anon2-
"To me this represents a major source of denial and ignorant defense of an educational program."
Your response to my comments does nothing to address the issue of IB. You actually used this quote to attack me, while I was actually talking about Ms. Eager's attacks on an organization based upon the quotes of its founders. What the founders of IB and if they disclose their salary is a trivial matter, at best. Do you know how much your neighbor makes? How is this relevant to the pedagogy of IB?
Anon2,
No, I quoted you, and you are a liar.
Obviously, we are talking about IB HL vs AP. Those are recognized (or not recognized) equally by MIT.
Ms. Eagar states that the IB assessment is not thorough enough and that "That depends on what one considers “thorough.” The IB assessment is an open essay format, as opposed to a multiple choice format, which requires the student to be able to write about a particular topic. However, the students also know what they will be tested on in advance. The student must give politically correct answers in order to qualify for the highest descriptor scores."
This is simply not true. Each subject area is different. In English there are multiple assessments, both written and oral. Students know in general what they might be tested on, for example, on one exam they will either have to write a commentary on a poem or on a prose passage. They do not, however, have any idea what the actual pieces will be. This year the prose piece was C.S. Lewis, a writer they have not studied but many are familiar with.
On one of their oral exams they randomly get a passage from Shakespeare or perhaps from several poets they have studied in detail and then they have 20 minutes to plan an oral commentary. After the planning time, they speak for ten to twelve minutes on the piece they were given while they are tape recorded. The oral assessments, by the way, are graded by the teacher, not by an outside grader.
Get your facts straight Ms. Eagar.
Anon 1
Seagulljap:
You were talking about Ms. Eager's "attacks" on IBO, I referred to the quality of your "defense" of IBO. If you want to take that personally, that's your problem, I did not attack you as a person.
I don't pay school taxes to my neighbor. My neighbor's income is made in private industry and is his business. Public monies being used to pay a non-profit should only be paid to NP corporations which operate under the American premise of full disclosure. IBO does not. Whether you consider this to be irrelevant, is not the point.
IBO pedagogy is a separate issue.
Anonymous:
Apparently my simple example was too difficult for you and IB teaches you that 18 = 12. Anyone that ignorant does not deserve any further responses from me.
-anon2
Anon 7:44 a.m.:
Looking at the very link you provided, it appears to me that a passing grade on an AP test is equivalent to passing the Freshman Essay Evaluation at MIT.
IB students have no way of earning equivalent credit.
Stop lying, Anon 2.
We were talking about IB HL and AP scores and the college credit afforded for these at MIT, not the number of semesters spent studying for these exams (and in my book as a college professor, it is much better to study the material in depth over two years than cram it all in one and just memorize enough, without understanding, to pass a multiple-choice AP test). Credit-wise these are exactly equivalent at MIT. No, wait... in fact, AP Physics B earns no credit at MIT while IB Physics HL earns the same credit as AP Physics C.
Anon2,
I am sure you are a delightful individual. So anything below is not intended as a personal attack, but rather a critique of your statements.
The reason I took it as a personal attack is because your reasoning makes no sense to me. I was discussing IB pedagogy in relation to the teachings of IB in Utah. Then you counter with a discussion of the disclosure of salaries. You then proceed to proclaim that IB pedagogy is a completely different issue. You were the one who brought it up and then I proceeded to respond questioning what this has to do with IB pedagogy. You beat around the bush, responding with something about public disclosure and chastising me for bringing up IB pedagogy.
Again, no personal attack, but people in glass houses should not be throwing stones. Especially ones like these.
"Apparently my simple example was too difficult for you and IB teaches you that 18 = 12. Anyone that ignorant does not deserve any further responses from me. "
Anonymous:
The 1st Anonymous stated:
This is a lie. Most colleges, and in particular MIT, give the same credit for IB and AP:
There was no differentiation for SL or HL IB made, so please don't try and pretend that there was.
For a "college professor", you seem to have difficulty with the concept of "equivalent":
We were talking about IB HL and AP scores and the college credit afforded for these at MIT, not the number of semesters spent studying for these exams (and in my book as a college professor,
That's right. We were talking about college credit at MIT. And once again, a student can take 2 AP exams to the one IB exam. The 2 AP exams can yield 18 credits as compared to the IB 12 credits. What about this 2nd grade concept are you unable to grasp? There may be one or two courses where this is different, but overall, this is the MIT policy. You can stamp your feet and call me a liar all you want, but the truth is right there in the link I provided.
seagulljap:
Oh, I'm not so delightful. In fact, I get downright aggravated with IB supporters who constantly twist my words and then try to accuse me of doing the same with theirs.
YOU were the one who stated that you couldn't understand how the beliefs of IBO's "leaders" related to the IB pedagogy. My point, showing how IBO as an organization refuses to disclose the most basic
financial information about its "leaders" is critical. It points to a basic lack of honesty and integrity within the IBO which is at odds with American values and most certainly must trickle down into the product it is selling.
-anon2
I agree with anon 2s self-assessment. Not so delightful and oh, so rude.
From the MIT website link in earlier post.
AP "Mathematics
For a score of 4 or 5 on the BC Calculus examination, credit is given for 12 units of subject 18.01 Calculus I. For scores lower than 4, no credit is given. Although no credit is given for the Calculus AB exam, a score of 4 or 5 places you into the accelerated Calculus sequence.
Vs.
IB Mathematics: For a score of a 6 or 7, credit will be given for 12 units of subject 18.01, Calculus I. For scores lower than 6, no credit is awarded."
I don't really see the difference. Looks like the same credit to me.
More important than whether or not a student gets college credit for either an AP or IB exam is that colleges see that students took advantage of rigorous programs at their high schools. AP works for some students. IB works for some students. No program that I know of works for ALL. Otherwise, why would be have "special education," "Gifted Education," "Technical education," and so on?
anon 1
I don't really see the difference. Looks like the same credit to me.
That's because you are only looking at MATH, one subject. As I said, there are one or two exceptions to the 18>12 rule.
Try seeing the forest through the trees.
-anon2
Anon 10:34 said:
Credit-wise these are exactly equivalent at MIT.
Anon 10:34, you are conveniently leaving out MIT's communication requirement.
From the site helpfully posted (yet nevertheless misinterpreted) by anon 7:44, we learn:
A score of 5 on either the [AP] Language and Composition or [AP] Literature and Composition test is considered equivalent to passing the Freshman Essay Evaluation (FEE).
Unfortunately for IB students, the same link shows that there is no way to earn the same standing at MIT by taking any IB test. In my opinion, this puts to rest the issue of whether or not MIT treats AP and IB the same. MIT clearly favors AP.
To anon 2:
On the opening feed the senate site said "keep it civil."
Is it necessary to respond to people's legitimate questions with insults?
I simply said I didn't see a difference and you pointed out that I was only looking at math. Yes. You don't have to be so nasty about it.
Quit being a bully
anon 1
"In my opinion, this puts to rest the issue of whether or not MIT treats AP and IB the same. MIT clearly favors AP."~Anon2
Only in your opinion. If you compare two students, one taking AP Physics B, and the other IB Physics HL (both general physics courses covering many topics), then the IB student will get credit at MIT, while the AP student will not. Following your logic, I should conclude that MIT favors IB in this case.
Anonymous 5:26 PM:
Only in your opinion. If you compare two students, one taking AP Physics B, and the other IB Physics HL (both general physics courses covering many topics), then the IB student will get credit at MIT, while the AP student will not
However the AP Student who scores a 5 on both parts of the AP Physics C exam scores the same credit as the IB HL Physics. Very convenient of you to point to Physics B instead of Physics C, as noted.
AND, once again, I say that the Physics requirement and the Calc course are the EXCEPTIONS to the 18>12 rule, which clearly shows that MIT does NOT award equal credit for AP and IB, OVERALL.
-anon2
Yes, but if you want to compare apples to apples, you should compare two general physics courses offered in both programs.
Also, WRITING IN ALL CAPS does not help you make a point. And your 18/12 argument is rather ridiculous, if you ask me. Compare apples to apples please, not how many semesters one preparares for an exam.
To All:
I intend to respond to the inquiries directed at my post as my time permits. I’ve enjoyed reading the lively discussion and promise to respond. :-)
Briefly, on the AP v. IB college credit discussion, some comments:
1. The discussion on the Senate Site is beginning to look a lot like the discussion at Bob Morse’s blog (U.S. News and World Report: http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2008/5/5/in-defense-of-international-baccalaureate.html . Check it out.
2. I told the moderator before I submitted my summary that my greatest concern was that I had to summarize a lengthy manuscript quickly to meet the publication deadline, and that in so doing some details might be left out resulting in a leap of logic. In that regard, it is true that the IB credits at the standard level (SL) rarely transfer to college credit. Higher Level (HL) credits transfer, but with variables depending on the subject and the accepting institution. To that end, there is no consensus from one institution to another and from one subject to another.
However AP remains the more popular and widely accepted. I agree with the professor on the Morse Code blog who has had considerable experience with the shortcomings of both the AP and the IB credits. He believes the best way to go is to “scrap” both and to administer the college’s own placement tests.
3. My discussion of the exams referred specifically to the external assessment exams, which are graded by examiners from around the world. That was not to omit the fact that there are other internal assessments and orals.
4. I interviewed several students during their external exams and one student explained that because they knew what the questions would be in advance, it was easy. Now, if you review the Morse Code blog, you will see that there is concern about the integrity and transparency of the IBO.
First, an organization that can terminate a contract with a school not passing muster will be able to report better results. That is happening as I write. (Tyler, TX) If this program is truly “education for all” a low-performing school would not be terminated. It is, however, a convenient way to inflate the statistics.
Second, the method of reporting the number of students sitting for exams is in dispute, some reporting two exams when only one was actually taken - another way to inflate the statistics.
Third, one cannot know whether student performance is due to the talent and intelligence the student brings to the IB program in the first place or whether it is the IB itself that affects student performance.
For example, on one tour of an IB school, the administrators brought in their top IB student to talk to us about how the program helped her get into an elite college. What they didn’t know was that I knew her and her family (before she was an IB student), enough to know that she was already a high achiever and that she would have qualified for entrance in any elite college with or without the IB.
Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research
Cherilyn:
However AP remains the more popular and widely accepted. I agree with the professor on the Morse Code blog who has had considerable experience with the shortcomings of both the AP and the IB credits. He believes the best way to go is to “scrap” both and to administer the college’s own placement tests.
The professor who recommended scrapping both AP and IB in favor of college placement exams is someone with a decidedly pro-IB agenda. Why do you think this is a good idea? This person is only recommending this because IB has so much difficulty receiving the same credit at universities as AP.
In these hard economic times and with tuitions at an all time high, saving a semester or a year's worth of credit can make or break some families. It is also an economic ploy to put more money in the university coffers. Let's not recommend throwing the baby out with the bathwater just because the new kid in town doesn't fit in the tub, too.
Cherilyn:
First, an organization that can terminate a contract with a school not passing muster will be able to report better results.
I don't know if you have ever filed a FOI on a school district's "contract" with IBO, but I have. There is no such animal. The only written agreement school districts ever sign with IBO is the initial application for authorization. Districts are free to cancel "allegiance" to IBO at anytime. The situation in Tyler is interesting. While I agree with the TX gentleman who pointed out that Tyler being threatened with loss of authorization could result in better results being reported, according to the article I read, the 2nd IBO evaluation had not yet taken place. It seems to me more like a situation where the Tyler administrators dropped IB to save face. We don't actually know if IBO would have cancelled Tyler's authorization or if it would have continued cashing checks for the next five years, despite terrible results. Furthermore, I have never seen evidence of a school having its IB authorization pulled. Have you?
-anon2
The professor who recommended scrapping both AP and IB in favor of college placement exams is someone with a decidedly pro-IB agenda. Why do you think this is a good idea? This person is only recommending this because IB has so much difficulty receiving the same credit at universities as AP. ~Anon2
Here is what that professor (Cornell Ph.D.) had to say about this:
In general, as a university professor, I am in favor of abandoning automatic credit and placement for IB and AP and awarding credit based on each university's placement exams. If students know the material well enough for the particular university's standards, they will place out. I've seen too many students who got AP credit for calculus but really don't know it and are not ready for the more advanced courses. I am glad to see that some departments (e.g. UPenn's chemistry, which awards only general credit for AP/IB exams but will not place out students who have not passed departmental placement exam) are already doing that.
Another poster with a Ph.D. in biology from MIT wrote:
I would be in favor of scrapping credit by AP/IB exam and just going by the college's own placement tests. That is the only way to gauge whether students have adequate knowledge of the subjects in which they wish to earn college credit.
And yet another professor said:
And if your kids get into a really top school, its probably a good idea to go ahead and take the course again unless they pass that particular school's placement test--and if they do that, they don't need AP or IB anyway.
I trust the readers can judge for themselves who has an agenda here and who speaks from experience.
Readers:
Anonymous of 8:57 AM earned her PhD at Cornell, however is currently a Prof. at the University of Pittsburgh and is one of the activists from Upper St. Clair, PA who is a member of WAVES, the USC group which backed the ACLU lawsuit against the school board majority to keep IB in the schools after the Board voted to phase it out.
This individual has appointed herself as my personal Gestapo, vowing to police my "spread of propaganda about IB" on the Internet.
Knowing the facts, I trust the readers here can judge for themselves who has an agenda and who seeks the truth.
-anon2
Anon2 is clearly mistaken about my identity. Does he/she have access to my IP address? Does he/she think there is only one professor out there supporting the IB program? Sounds like paranoia to me.
Regardless, I am quite sure that disclosing (even erroneously) posters' identities and posting other people's personal information on the web is against the rules on this blog. I hope the moderators take notice.
Again, I hope the readers make their own conclusions about Anon2's credibility.
Readers:
Please note, I never mentioned Anonymous 9:23 AM's real name. However, after years of being tracked by her, I have no need of her IP address, her writing style speaks for itself. Accusations of paranoia and complaining to the moderator are her modus operandi.
-anon2
years of being tracked by her...accusations of paranoia
I have no idea who has been "tracking you" for "years" but paranoia does sound about right.
Geez Anons, give it a rest.
Good comments on the AP/IB discussion. One final comment on this point, which can get rather tedious after a while:
I am not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bath water. I’m suggesting that the bath water’s gotten too dirty to put the baby in it. If money is the issue, there’s another tub out there that could be used: Concurrent Enrollment.
One of my sons completed his first year of college during high school through concurrent enrollment. At the time, he took these college classes on the college campus. These courses are now taught on the high school campus. The national organization is called the National Alliance of Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships. More information is at http://www.nacep.org/concurrentenrol.html
Utah would do well to strengthen those opportunities.
One of the problems with AP/IB is that it encourages schools at the secondary and higher education levels to standardize with a one-size-fits-all model. Another problem is that it puts the federal government in the driver's seat.
As far as the agenda for making money, someone is going to make money. The money will either be made by the AP, the IBO or the university. I’d rather give it to the university directly. Funding varies depending on state policy. In Utah CE classes are “free” to the student (covered by the state).
Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research
Bewildered:
I’ve served on several steering committees and boards and have assisted some fledgling organizations with governance issues. I have seen some rather unusual and troubling situations arise within young non-profits, which usually can be traced to problems in governance and structure.
This prompted me to research and analyze the Bylaws of some of the country’s best-run non-profits. It developed into a 200-page manual on governance for those who are interested in starting a non-profit organization, including sample Bylaws, organizational charts and policy and procedures recommendations.
Most of my time is spent researching and writing. When WCER is about to overstep the IRS definition for a “c 3” in the lobbying area, I will file for an extension, and then if needed I will set up a “c 4.” If I find it necessary to endorse a candidate, I will establish a PAC. If there is a particular issue that requires more than the IRS allows a c 3, I will set up a 527.
Until then, WCER is doing just fine as a 501 (c)(3).
Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research
Anon3:
You asked if I am afraid that students might ask questions.
Answer: Of course not. I have been a teacher for over 30 years in a variety of settings. Asking questions that prompt thinking is the number one tool I have used to engage students.
The issue, as I described it, is that scientific inquiry, epistemology, and axiology have their place, and that place is not to sit in comparative judgment over non-scientific, faith-based matters of truth.
IB is an exemplary European (Oxford/Geneva) pedagogy and theory that has been used over the last century in Europe. The results are observed in Europe’s highly secularized and dying culture today.
Anon3 said: "Would you rather they just do and think what "Big Brother" orders? There is a real Orwellian tone to her "arguments" and that is what I find frightening."
It sounds as if you are fairly fearful yourself, but we do agree on the Big Brother point. “Big Brother” is exactly what I would like to avoid in education and in all areas of government. Putting education under the umbrella of the federal government and/or an international governing or policy-influencing body is not my idea of holding down the cost nor the accompanying bureaucracy required to manage it from afar.
Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research
Cherilyn:
Regarding your comment about the "dirty bathwater" and preference for concurrent enrollment, please consider that NYU is eliminating credit for dual/concurrent enrollment as of the Class of 2013. As one of the top institutions of learning in this country, it is possible many other colleges will follow suit.
http://www.nyunews.com/news/2008/05/19/University/Nyu-CollegeLevel.Courses.Wont.Get.You.Credit-3373114.shtml
-anon2
IB Gives Future Engineering Students Short Shrift
http://www.mlive.com/saginawnews/news/index.ssf/2008/06/some_top_saginaw_townshi\
p_heri.html
James Shinners has his heart set on winning admission to the
University of Michigan's College of Engineering.
The 17-year-old Heritage High School junior had plans to stack his
senior class schedule with tough courses.
Second-year Advanced Placement calculus. Human anatomy. Advanced
Placement physics. Fifth-year Spanish.
There's one problem, the honor student says: He can't take them all.
"The conflicts are a very big deal," said Keenan, 16. "If a student
isn't affected by this, they know someone who is."
Some students theorize that as the International Baccalaureate course
offerings expand at Heritage, Advanced Placement courses, and the
students who take them, are getting the short shrift.
This is exactly what happens in schools that were AP and which adopt IB. The design of the IB program creates terrible scheduling problems and forces the elimination of Honors and AP courses.
-anon2
There is no need to keep AP courses that duplicate the existing better IB courses.
There is no need to keep AP courses that duplicate the existing better IB courses.
While it may make you feel better to repeat this IB mantra, it is a statement which holds zero credibility.
First of all, Heritage HS doesn't even list its course guide online. It currently claims to offer 10-12 IB courses. We don't know what they are, or how many are SL and how many are HL.
Secondly, U. of Mich only recognizes HL IB courses/exams
http://www.admissions.umich.edu/academics/ibguidelines.html
The Office of Undergraduate Admissions generally awards credit for I.B. Higher Level examinations passed with scores of 5 or above. The University does not give credit for standard/subsidiary level examinations.
Therefore, if Heritage HS only offers SL IB Math or SL IB Physics, our aspiring engineering student is out of luck.
While it may make you feel better to repeat this IB mantra, it is a statement which holds zero credibility.
Given that I am a college professor familiar with both programs, I'd say it has far more credibility than you think. What are your credentials?
Therefore, if Heritage HS only offers SL IB Math or SL IB Physics, our aspiring engineering student is out of luck.
Or rather, they are in luck - they will take the real college courses in these subjects and will be better prepared for more advanced courses.
Oh. It's you. I'll spare the Senate Site any further responses to your posts. In the future, please identify yourself as Anonymous666 so I will know to ignore your posts.
-anon2
Don't take my word for it - read the literature
From the 2002 National Research Council Report "Learning and Understanding: Improving Advanced Study of Mathematics and Science in U.S. High Schools" by a panel of university professors and high school teachers:
"... IB program, including its biology course, rests on the importance of interdisciplinary connections in learning. The IB program is exemplary and far superior in this regard. The AP program should consider changes that would promote interdisciplinary learning...."
and
"The AP and IB courses, while including some of the best education in the subject currently available at the secondary level, tend in general to be out of date, too broad, and too inflexible in their curricula. Moreover, they often ignore the results of recent research on science learning, pedagogy, and assessment, and do not conform to the pedagogical standards of the NSES and INSES. The panel judges IB to be superior to AP in many respects, but making AP more like IB will not be enough; rather, systemic changes are required in the preparation of teachers and the teaching of biology at all levels."
Since Senator Dayton and Cherilyn Eager Bacon are most specifically concerned about IB's lack of attention to our American values and history, I prefer to cite The Fordham Report which has the following to say about the IB HL History of the Americas course:
http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/APIB.pdf
This option does a respectable job of covering several important U.S. history topics—such as the
Articles of Confederation, the Constitution, and the Civil War, as well as some seminal leaders,
such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Abraham Lincoln. But because the course
focuses on all of the Americas, it cannot cover all the U.S. material that an American student
should learn. Among the people and topics important for the revolutionary and early political
period, for example, and yet not included in the IB syllabus: Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin,
the Boston Tea Party, Lexington and Concord, and the tensions between Jefferson’s and
Hamilton’s visions of the country in the Washington administration.
Beyond this slighting of some important material, however, lies a bigger problem. It is not jingoistic
to believe in American exceptionalism, or in the responsibility of U.S. schools to teach students
not only about U.S. flaws, but also about what has made our nation a world success story.
A good U.S. history course explains why large numbers of immigrants consistently want to come
here, and what the basic values are that most Americans share. Certainly many policymakers
and much of the public expect as much. But the broad scope of the Americas option all but
ensures that any such discussion would be muted......[SNIP].......In short, this option is neither detailed nor rich enough to serve as the sole course in U.S. history
for American high school students.
-anon2
Whoops, I don't know why I am having such problems with your name Cherilyn. That should have been Cherilyn Bacon Eager. Sorry. ;-)
-anon2
It should be noted that unlike the NRC report I have quoted above, which reports the results of investigation by four panels (one panel for each subject considered) of teachers and college professors, the Fordham report relied on a single reviewer for each subject and thus reflected an opinion of just that one individual. Different reviewers often have very different opinions, which is why scientific articles are always peer-reviewed by several reviewers.
Something to think about in terms of credibility of Fordham report.
I agree that The Fordham Report is flawed. In fact, the Professor who reviewed the Math component asked for his name to be removed from the report because the committee changed his grading causing IB to be reflected higher than AP. I cited this report because it is basically the only one Jay Mathews refers to in his attempts to bolster IB and still, it points out serious deficits in IB.
For those of you who would like to read the entire NRC report, here is the link:
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309074401
I think it is most important to note that the NRC report recognizes that IB does not represent its courses as college level, while AP does.
-anon2
I think it is most important to note that the NRC report recognizes that IB does not represent its courses as college level, while AP does.
The fact that College Board represents its courses as college level does not mean they actually are. Those of us working in academia know otherwise. The NRC report also says as much. The truth is, "one size fits all" does not work in education, and the levels of AP, IB and college courses differ dramatically from high school to high school and from college to college. Which is why I agree with the professor advocating placement exams only credit policy.
Both AP and IB programs provide a great preparation for college and offer courses that do include some material covered in most colleges. But they are not equivalent to college courses.
From the NRC report -
recommendation of the biology panel:
Colleges and universities should be strongly discouraged from using performance on either the AP or IB examination as the sole basis for automatic placement out of required introductory college courses for biology majors and distribution requirements for nonmajors.
Readers:
Ask yourselves, why does Anonymous want to focus solely on the NRC report? The answer is simple. Whether these courses have been reviewed by committee or individuals, really is not the issue. The NRC report only deals with Math and Science.
Frankly, I don't have all that much of a problem with IB Math and Science. But you can't just "buy" individual IB courses as you can with AP, you must purchase the whole package which, yes, includes History, English and the infamous TOK. And it is within these subjects that my objections remain focused.
-anon2
I chose to focus on the NRC report because it provides an objective analysis of strenghts and shortcomings of both programs. I am not aware of such analysis for other subjects.
Anecdotally, however, the IB teachers and students in my children's school love IB History, English, foreign languages and especially TOK. These courses are quite popular in the school. The only complaints I ever heard about these courses are from extreme right-wing conservatives like Allen Quist and organizations such as Edwatch, Eagle Forum, CEOPA etc. Their baseless claims are not what I call an objective analysis by any measure.
I am not aware of such analysis for other subjects.
This is a disingenuous statement to say the least, as you just criticized the Fordham Report above which does compare and contrast those subjects. Then in the next breath, you expect .gov to help fund IB based on your anecdotal IB happy tales because, why? According to you, the only people who criticize IB happen to hold Conservative viewpoints which you brandish as "baseless". Keep going, I know it will only be a matter of a post or two before you start calling me ignorant and uneducated.
-anon2
As I already explained, Fordham report does not represent an objective analysis, since it only involved one reviewer for each subject. Something similar to NRC report for non-science subjects would certainly be good to have.
Find me a non-extreme-right-wing-conservative group that provides an objective and unbiased criticism of the program. As for the level of your knowledge, I do not need to point out the obvious.
Easy tiger. Keep it civil. Both of you. Thanks.
Anon2-
What exactly is your main beef with IB? You seem so aggressively involved to remove it from schools, make sure that there is no fu